Standardisation of some caving statements eg. i can do srt

hrock

hrock

New member
so we have all done a trip that some one said was not tight and found it to be a lie (or the other way round if your skiny) this is easy to solve you look at the person telling you it is small.

but i have met a few people who say i can do srt and only quite some time in to the trip do they say:

oh i cant do it when there is nothing to stand on.
the knot in this re-belay has come undone (deviation) or just clipping every thing as they hang on some bit of string.
there is a knot were this rope it really frayed so i cant get past it.

now i don't like the idea of payed for courses (sorry if you do) but how ever you learn it in my opinion some one should not say they can do srt till with out help they can cope with:
up,
down,
traverses
deviations
knot passes (up and down)
changing over
using a rope protector


all the above done with out anything to stand on.
and be able to tie a figer of 8 at least.

could it be that the bca or other should put out some defined terms.

what do you think....


i think this might get more comments than my post looking for pipe in the digging section


 
A

Amy

New member
Here we dont let people on vertical trips until (at least someone trusted in the group) it is known they can do the manouvers necesary. At minimum this means they have climbed the amount of the drop, understand their rappeling device (standard here is a rack), and can do both up-to-down and down-to-up changeovers, and know your basic knots (figure 8 varients and Prusik for sure, and how to use them). Chances to do these things in vertical courses or grotto vertical practice are plenty at least twice a month.

For example, Mystery Falls (300ish ft single pitch in cave drop) this weekend, there are a few additional things I need to do to satisfy the trip leader I can handle it (basically be comfortable with fullsize rack - I have until now used a micro - and tandom climbing). Here, trip leaders have final authority say. If they aren't comfortable with your skills and/or dont have confirmation of your skills they just say nope, you can't go. There are plenty of chances to practice so no excuses, and the caves aren't going anywhere so if you need more time you can go on a later trip. Safety first.
 
Leclused

Leclused

Active member
Courses are  a first start of standardisation. The result is a certificate stating what you can.

Then if you go caving with somebody new then you can ask. Do you have certificate X or Y or Z.

Here in Belgium the WSV has several modules

Certificate A =  after completing you are able to descend and ascend and pass all possible problems (veritcal and horizontal)
Certificate B =  after completing you are able to hang out the ropes :) (vertical and horizontal), and you can lead other cavers around in a vertical cave.

There are some other courses too for expedition, rescue,...

In france the FFS has even more courses and they are very good.

http://ffspeleo.fr/formation-a-l-equipement-97-110.html

Dagobert
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
hrock said:
now i don't like the idea of payed for courses
Click to expand...

Perhaps this would make another thread, but.....

Why not?


As Dagobert states, there is already a form of standardisation in SRT competence; it's called SRT Training.
 
ChrisJC

ChrisJC

Well-known member
If you expect people to 'self certify' by ticking a list of skillz they have, then you can also expect people to lie.

I have been on countless trips where people have claimed to be SRT proficient, only to find that a non straighforward obstacle (e.g. freehanging deviation) causes a huge headache!

So I'd agree that assessment of competence should be third-party, e.g.
- Training course & certificate
- Peer group / network

I suppose if somebody is known to have done a particular trip, e.g. Brewery Shaft at Nenthead, then they can be taken to be SRT competent. Or the Swinsto through trip.

Chris.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Indeed; it appears from the OP that it is a (relatively) common scenario for people to be on trips which are waaaay beyond their skill set - while one hopes it all works out OK and nothing untoward occurs, it is clearly far from ideal and could result in epicness, or worse. "Working it out as you go along" isn't really a good approach to roped caving (understatement) and it creates a whole subset of questions.... another thread perhaps.
 
langcliffe

langcliffe

Well-known member
ChrisJC said:
I suppose if somebody is known to have done a particular trip, e.g. Brewery Shaft at Nenthead, then they can be taken to be SRT competent. Or the Swinsto through trip.
Click to expand...

What does the Swinsto through trip indicate, apart from the fact that the somebody can slide down a rope?
 
graham

graham

New member
cap 'n chris said:
Perhaps this would make another thread, but.....

Why not?
Click to expand...

Because the thing that follows from a "certificate of competence" is a refusal, either directly or indirectly to permit someone who does not have that certificate to enter that cave.

That way lies increased regimentation, increased costs and a loss of the sheer joy that many of us have got over the years from the freedom that we have found underground.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Granted, but there's two currents now. I'm trying to avoid the Certificate of Competence one since that has been a red rag to a bull for decades in British caving - a logical consequence of that could easily be the denial of access to caves to anyone who wasn't commercially sanctioned and that would be contrary to some present access arrangements.

My question was to elicit any specific reasons which might exist why formal training in SRT is somehow a no-go area.
 
simonsays

simonsays

New member
Tricky......

Take the phrase "suitable for novices"

It's often used to describe caving trips, but how would you even begin to quantify a novice caver? I've been looking back through my log book, some twenty odd trips out. I still firmly place myself in the novice category especially when caves involve any verticality. Having said this, I'm not quite the clueless noob that I once was having spent nearly 100 hours or so underground. A cave that I consider within my abilities now may have been an entirely different prospect when I first started out. :confused:
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Belgium, Holland have had competence certification for many years.  I attended and observed such a course back in the late 90s and wrote an article in Descent entitled 'Going Dutch'.

I am not aware that these courses have resulted in the Orwellian nightmare that seems to haunt some British cavers.  It seemed to be a very effective way to encourage higher standards of competence and proficiency. 
 
F

Fulk

Well-known member
I agree completely with hrock about the level of skill needed to be able to claim to be 'SRT competent', apart from one thing ? the odd absence from his list of rebelays (up and down, of course); I assume that this is just an oversight.

Well, I have anecdotes aplenty about going caving with people who claimed to be SRT competent, but then screwed up on basic stuff ? such as the caver who announced, at the top of Death's Head Pot, that she'd never done a rebelay 'but she knew the theory'.

What do you do when faced with such a situation . . . I must admit that I was moved to tell someone (who'd spent about 25 min trying to pass the rebelay near the top of the big pitch in Juniper Gulf) to 'piss off out, 'cos it's not a game of tiddley-winks and you could die down there'.
 
caving_fox

caving_fox

Active member
At least some of the responsibility for avoiding these situations lies with the person leading the trip - whoever booked the permit, or who has volunteered to rig, or is the person to whom Mr"I can do srt" is speaking. They have to go beyond accepting "I can do srt" at face value, and ask about some details, trips they have done, and explain the features of this cave which might be harder than expected.

Generally in the clubs (small in size) I've been caving with, most intake is generally a novice (ie no expected skills at all) and the club knows the skills of everyone in the party, the trip leader has probably also been helping to train said novice beforehand, and no nasty surprises await. It is harder in a larger club where not everyone is known, or where a "skilled" person joins that club. But the responsibility still lies on whoever is leading the trip.

No need for certification, or standardisation. But there is a need for communication, and people to take responsibility - not just for themeselves although that is certainly alos a requirement, but for others. Caving is a team activity.
 
Les W

Les W

Active member
<Devils advocate>
But despite the lack of standards and certificates of competence, how many rescues are directly a result of this "lack of knowledge"?

I haven't looked the rescue stats up but my perception is that a large number of callouts are due to "Overdue party" and the serious callouts (falls, etc) happen to anybody.

I don't think there is any greater incidence of rescues because of this "lack of standards"

I guess that the apparent lack of standards is overcome by the individuals and group without any more major intervention. Nobody died, and everybody was wiser...
</Devils advocate>
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Fulk said:
I was moved to tell someone (who'd spent about 25 min trying to pass the rebelay near the top of the big pitch in Juniper Gulf) to 'piss off out, 'cos it's not a game of tiddley-winks and you could die down there'.
Click to expand...

Sounds like an effective (if somewhat abrupt) exercise of your caver-to-caver duty of care.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
caving_fox said:
At least some of the responsibility for avoiding these situations lies with the person leading the trip - whoever booked the permit, or who has volunteered to rig, or is the person to whom Mr"I can do srt" is speaking.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure "All-comers" club trips (and the people organising or leading) would agree; surely the responsibility for lying about competence rests entirely with the person claiming they have the requisite skill set.
 
menacer

menacer

Active member
Les W said:
.......Nobody died, and everybody was wiser...
Click to expand...

Nobody died, and everybody said "remind me to never go on a caving trip with them again, i nearly died of hypothermia waiting......"  ;)
 
A

Andy Sparrow

Active member
Les W said:
<Devils advocate>
But despite the lack of standards and certificates of competence, how many rescues are directly a result of this "lack of knowledge"?

I haven't looked the rescue stats up but my perception is that a large number of callouts are due to "Overdue party" and the serious callouts (falls, etc) happen to anybody.

I don't think there is any greater incidence of rescues because of this "lack of standards"

I guess that the apparent lack of standards is overcome by the individuals and group without any more major intervention. Nobody died, and everybody was wiser...
</Devils advocate>
Click to expand...

I would have to say to that, cobblers.  What about the succession of accidents and injuries caused by losing control with a Stop descender? 
 
Leclused

Leclused

Active member
Never saw soo much reaction in such a short time , seems to be a delicate subject in the UK.

What I was trying to state is that when a caver has a certificate it is much easier for  a group leader to identify what a person should be able to do. BUT if the person is not certified but has a lot of experience then it is also fine.

About training in clubs: in my club we encourge new members to follow A+B courses because we think that the WSV are best placed to give these courses. And by doing this we have more time to go caving ourselves  ;)

When I followed the courses it was a very pleasant time where I met cavers from other clubs and we did a lot of caves together and had a lot of fun too.

And the prices for such a course are very fair (in Belgium).

Fe the Course for a Certificate B is 290Eur. For that you get 5 week-ends (4 in Belgium and a long WE in France/ Doubs Area). The price  includes accomodation, rent of material, book and the knowledge of the teachers. Food and transport are not included.

I find this a fair price for a course like that.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top