cap n chris
Well-known member
Clearly they weren't.
Standardisation of some caving statements eg. i can do srt
- Thread starter hrock
- Start date
darren
Member
You do seem to be very single minded on this, lets throw a quick insult at anyone who disagrees with me.
It might come as a bit of a shock to you but I am a real human with my own opinions that are just as valid as yours. You don't see me belittling your opinions or views every time you say that" level one cave leadership is just perfect for your average newbe caver". I may or may not agree with your statement, but I don't reply to it with "How caves form? why would any new caver want to pay good money to be taught that".
Sometimes I wonder why professional cavers get a bad name. Sometimes I don't
al
Member
It would be nice to see the BCA come up with leadership training which was aimed a bit beyond taking groups of non-cavers around a small set of specific L1 and L2 sites using vertical techniques which haven't been used regularly in club caving for over 20 years. Perhaps then club cavers would show some interest in this training?
However, I doubt that any certification methods would resolve hrock's (and our) problem. We all know L1s, L2s and even CICs who we would avoid caving with. If we had wider versions of certification, as they do in Holland, you would still want to know who you are caving with beyond what that piece of paper says.
And it's not just an SRT issue either, is it? Getting down Titan and finding out that your chum doesn't really want to deal with a 1" airspace is something that should have been resolved on the surface!
However, I doubt that any certification methods would resolve hrock's (and our) problem. We all know L1s, L2s and even CICs who we would avoid caving with. If we had wider versions of certification, as they do in Holland, you would still want to know who you are caving with beyond what that piece of paper says.
And it's not just an SRT issue either, is it? Getting down Titan and finding out that your chum doesn't really want to deal with a 1" airspace is something that should have been resolved on the surface!
Andy Sparrow
Active member
darren said:
Sorry, Darren, it's not my intention to insult you or anybody - I provided some very logical counter arguments to the points you made and I feel strongly that your 'where does it stop' question has overtones of the attitudes I referred to earlier.
If you think I am wrong then argue your point. Let's both keep on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
And yes, quite right, why would anyone want to pay good money to find out how caves form? What use would that ever be to a caver?
droid
Active member
I'm with Darren on this.
In any sport/activity there are those who see 'commercial opportunities', or potential for organising/controlling others.
This is almost inevitably justified by the statement that 'it's for your own good'. Usually the truth is that it's for the good of the bank account or ego of those doing the controlling.
There's no bigger incentive to get better at SRT than making a complete ricket of a procedure. Or watching someone else do it. It doesn't need formalised training linked with certification.
I'm not saying that training is a bad thing, it isn't. It doesn't need the dead hand of formalisation though.
And yes, Andy. This may be nonsense, but it's MY nonsense and you're welcome to tell me to my face next time I'm down the Ploughboy. PM me your mobile number and i'll let you know
In any sport/activity there are those who see 'commercial opportunities', or potential for organising/controlling others.
This is almost inevitably justified by the statement that 'it's for your own good'. Usually the truth is that it's for the good of the bank account or ego of those doing the controlling.
There's no bigger incentive to get better at SRT than making a complete ricket of a procedure. Or watching someone else do it. It doesn't need formalised training linked with certification.
I'm not saying that training is a bad thing, it isn't. It doesn't need the dead hand of formalisation though.
And yes, Andy. This may be nonsense, but it's MY nonsense and you're welcome to tell me to my face next time I'm down the Ploughboy. PM me your mobile number and i'll let you know
Pitlamp
Well-known member
I'm deeply concerned by some of the comments above and I fully agree with Graham's sentiments.
I go caving to get away from the badge passing mentality.
It's interesting that some of those in favour of showering us cavers with yet more paperwork include those who might seek to be remunerated for generating such stuff. As I've said elsewhere - I have absolutely no objection at all to a few people earning a living by teaching caving skills - so long as it never has any adverse effect on what my mates and I do in club caving, which thankfully is where the very best of British caving endeavour is achieved.
There is another insidious problem with this. If caving becomes regimented with rigid "how to" frameworks, it'd stifle development. This would reduce the capacity for caving skills and equipment to evolve according to the needs of participants or the exploratory challenges future cavers will face. It might even result in one of my friends trying to justify in court why (s)he did something in a way that wasn't the "accepted" method in some restrictive policy.
I'm always willing to change my mind of course, if presented with good enough evidence - but as far as I'm concerned right now British caving is fine as it is - please leave it alone.
I go caving to get away from the badge passing mentality.
It's interesting that some of those in favour of showering us cavers with yet more paperwork include those who might seek to be remunerated for generating such stuff. As I've said elsewhere - I have absolutely no objection at all to a few people earning a living by teaching caving skills - so long as it never has any adverse effect on what my mates and I do in club caving, which thankfully is where the very best of British caving endeavour is achieved.
There is another insidious problem with this. If caving becomes regimented with rigid "how to" frameworks, it'd stifle development. This would reduce the capacity for caving skills and equipment to evolve according to the needs of participants or the exploratory challenges future cavers will face. It might even result in one of my friends trying to justify in court why (s)he did something in a way that wasn't the "accepted" method in some restrictive policy.
I'm always willing to change my mind of course, if presented with good enough evidence - but as far as I'm concerned right now British caving is fine as it is - please leave it alone.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Perhaps (and it might require a major stretch of the imagination) professional cavers are people who, first and foremost, love caves and caving so much they want to do it more than anything else in the world. Given that such people also have bills and overheads to pay is it *that* surprising that they need to earn some money while doing it?
I don't think that professional cavers do it because they hate caves and want to wear them out as quickly as they can while becoming squillionaires and smashing formations off with hammers. However, when I see muddy Ferraris parked at Priddy with Petzl stickers on I'll let you know. I think it's a common misconception that the majority of self-respecting professional cavers live in Monaco, eat gold-leaf-coated-caviar and burn fifty pounds notes entirely out of spite while laughing and quaffing champers out of diamond-encrusted tankards.
I don't think that professional cavers do it because they hate caves and want to wear them out as quickly as they can while becoming squillionaires and smashing formations off with hammers. However, when I see muddy Ferraris parked at Priddy with Petzl stickers on I'll let you know. I think it's a common misconception that the majority of self-respecting professional cavers live in Monaco, eat gold-leaf-coated-caviar and burn fifty pounds notes entirely out of spite while laughing and quaffing champers out of diamond-encrusted tankards.
cap n chris
Well-known member
droid said:
Indeed, it doesn't "need" formalised training but if a caver attends a formalised training event (or even a club-run, in-house one) and gets a chitty at the end of it saying they have been tutored in XY&Z, and demonstrated an understanding of XY&Z, as well as a satisfactory ability to negotiate XY&Z then it would be exceptionally useful to other cavers who were seeking some yardstick to work out whether a trip they had in mind might be suitable.
hyweldavies
Member
There's a huge difference between paying someone to teach you some stuff, and paying someone for a certificate saying you are "allowed" to do some stuff.
I have no problem with the former, and have paid for and learned from SRT training from Mr Sparrow amongst others - however I did SRT quite happily before, and no one told me I wasn't allowed to do SRT.
I rather resent the fact that in diving, I have had to do for courses to "allow" me to do this or that. In the end I ended up doing a relatively advanced course purely to get certification for something far beyond what I was really ready for as I resented having to pay for the easy course which would have merely re-taught me O-level physics (advanced versus ordinary nitrox in case anyone's interested). I was then tempted into rather deeper waters than perhaps I should have been.
Training versus certification - discuss !
Hywel
I have no problem with the former, and have paid for and learned from SRT training from Mr Sparrow amongst others - however I did SRT quite happily before, and no one told me I wasn't allowed to do SRT.
I rather resent the fact that in diving, I have had to do for courses to "allow" me to do this or that. In the end I ended up doing a relatively advanced course purely to get certification for something far beyond what I was really ready for as I resented having to pay for the easy course which would have merely re-taught me O-level physics (advanced versus ordinary nitrox in case anyone's interested). I was then tempted into rather deeper waters than perhaps I should have been.
Training versus certification - discuss !
Hywel
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Chris - the problem is that you can't do that without impinging on the activities of people who prefer to avoid having to deal with that kind of approach. If you set up some sort of accreditation, even on a voluntary basis, by default it'd eventually become the "accepted" practice. In my view, caving should remain completely free of that.
Let me give you one reason why. Today I was involved in finding some extremely interesting and significant new cave in the Dales. This involved taking a very carefully calculated risk which took me outside what most people would agree is acceptable. But I used my experience and judgement, derived from many years of club caving - which paid off. If protocols are too rigidly defined it makes this kind of calculated risk taking a bit more difficult. I was able to draw on what many senior caving friends have taught me over a long period, freely passing on their valuable experience. I hope I'm also able to do something similar for newer people who come into caving. This is why I still believe that simply joining a good club is, in most circumstances, the best way to learn to be a caver.
Caving isn't broke - let's leave it alone and get on with it.
Regarding your penultimate post above Chris - let me repeat; I have no objection to people earning a living from caving - so long as this doesn't impinge on mainstream club caving. For me, issuing competence certificates is a step too far. I certainly respect the opinion of an experienced bloke like you - but please also respect mine. I suspect others share it.
Let me give you one reason why. Today I was involved in finding some extremely interesting and significant new cave in the Dales. This involved taking a very carefully calculated risk which took me outside what most people would agree is acceptable. But I used my experience and judgement, derived from many years of club caving - which paid off. If protocols are too rigidly defined it makes this kind of calculated risk taking a bit more difficult. I was able to draw on what many senior caving friends have taught me over a long period, freely passing on their valuable experience. I hope I'm also able to do something similar for newer people who come into caving. This is why I still believe that simply joining a good club is, in most circumstances, the best way to learn to be a caver.
Caving isn't broke - let's leave it alone and get on with it.
Regarding your penultimate post above Chris - let me repeat; I have no objection to people earning a living from caving - so long as this doesn't impinge on mainstream club caving. For me, issuing competence certificates is a step too far. I certainly respect the opinion of an experienced bloke like you - but please also respect mine. I suspect others share it.
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
Andy Sparrow said:
Andy Sparrow said:
:blink:
darren
Member
I have no problem with people making a living from caving and feel that a lot of the anty feeling is misdirected jealousy.
On the road the rule generally is those with most training are, all things being equal, more likely to be held responsible for an accident. This is because they are more skilled.
The hierarchy goes something like
Lorry or coach drivers - professional
car drivers
cyclists
Would certification have any implied liability impact.
I trusted his rigging/belaying because he is certified?
He was negligent because he has a certificate that says he knows what he did was potentially dangerous.
and yes I do know that no caver has ever been successfully sued for there actions
On the road the rule generally is those with most training are, all things being equal, more likely to be held responsible for an accident. This is because they are more skilled.
The hierarchy goes something like
Lorry or coach drivers - professional
car drivers
cyclists
Would certification have any implied liability impact.
I trusted his rigging/belaying because he is certified?
He was negligent because he has a certificate that says he knows what he did was potentially dangerous.
and yes I do know that no caver has ever been successfully sued for there actions
Les W
Active member
Andy Sparrow said:
But BCA sponsored training courses are available. BCA tries to give money away for amateur caving courses, even run by professionals.
It has proved problematic for the Training Committee to actually give this money away though, as people are just not applying for it. :-\
Leclused
Active member
Just to let you know that the training given in Belgium by the WSV is not done by commercial cavers. It is done by volunteers from different clubs from belgium and holland. It's only cost-covering for the teachers. But the teachers do this for the caving community, because they believe in training to get caving standards to a higher level. The teachters follow courses by the FFS fe and pass-on their knowledge to ohter cavers. And they do this very accurate.
And the certificate they give has no value for the insurance or whatever. They only teach you the techniques and that is the most important, NO? But it is very handy if you go caving with somebody from another club that you can ask do you have a A or B certificate (or none), it will indicate you what the person can or can't.
So what could be against such a kind of certification or standardisation. Some people of the WSV are really experts in rigging and they are always following extra courses the keep up with the latest rigging techniques.
I'm not saying that commercial cavers can't do the same thing. They can for sure.
Good night
Dagobert L'Ecluse
And the certificate they give has no value for the insurance or whatever. They only teach you the techniques and that is the most important, NO? But it is very handy if you go caving with somebody from another club that you can ask do you have a A or B certificate (or none), it will indicate you what the person can or can't.
So what could be against such a kind of certification or standardisation. Some people of the WSV are really experts in rigging and they are always following extra courses the keep up with the latest rigging techniques.
I'm not saying that commercial cavers can't do the same thing. They can for sure.
Good night
Dagobert L'Ecluse
