Standardisation of some caving statements eg. i can do srt

[Les W]

<Devils advocate>
......
</Devils advocate>

I would have to say to that, cobblers.  What about the succession of accidents and injuries caused by losing control with a Stop descender?

Are they still happening then? I haven't heard of an incident for years.  :-\
I assumed that the succession of Stop incidents, and all the subsequent publicity, had generally educated the caving community to the risks and people were far more careful nowadays

 

[TheBitterEnd]

It cuts both ways, I have been on trips where the "easily climable" has for me turned out to be a really nasty, exposed, unpleasant experience on which I would rather have had a rope. Also the quality of the rigging can make a huge difference, especially where there is no where to stand. I have been on rigging so tight it was a real struggle to get the stop off and at the other extreme seen loops at rebelays so long that I had to tie a knot in it to shorten it so that I could stand in it.

With practice one develops techniques to deal with these situations but  you might have caved for many years and never come across them. "I can do SRT" is a bit like "I can drive a car" we are probably inclined to over estimate our abilities simply because we not (yet) encoutnered all possible situations.

 

[cap n chris]

Fe the Course for a Certificate B is 290Eur. For that you get 5 week-ends (4 in Belgium and a long WE in France/ Doubs Area). The price  includes accomodation, rent of material, book and the knowledge of the teachers. Food and transport are not included.

I find this a fair price for a course like that.

Sounds very good; IIRC a day's SRT training in Andalucia is 195Eur.

 

[Fulk]

One aspect of this that hasn't yet been mentioned is the role of the 'trainer' ? whether he/she be a fellow club member or a professional instructor.

If a novice is shown how to get up and down a free-hanging rope and how to use cows' tails to safeguard his/her getting on and off, they might think that they are competent ? but it depends on whether the trainer points out that there's a lot more to SRT than simply going up and down a bit of string.

Take another skill, down-prusiking; how often do you actually have to do it? Should it be regarded as one of the 'core skills'? I was once de-rigging Diccan Pot and on the last pitch the rope jammed beneath me, but it had been pulled taut at an angle. There was not enough slack to install a descender, so in order to free the rope I had to back prusik for a considerable distance ? not my favourite activity, especially on a slanting rope, with the jammers being pulled at an odd angle and threatening to come off the rope.

 

[cap n chris]

Take another skill, down-prusiking; how often do you actually have to do it? Should it be regarded as one of the 'core skills'?

Yes. Because it is.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It's all very well attending a training course but the trainee must have the opportunity and the inclination to consolidate what they have learned.  Sometimes there is a considerable gap between training and the 'Yorkshire weekend'.  I realised some years ago that when I took supposedly SRT proficient groups to the Dales it was wise (possibly essential) to select caves that had simple rigging - no rebelays, only the simplest deviations, and pitches not too deep or wet to inhibit communication.  Had I have taken the group to a cave where a 'hung-up' incident occurred that would have been my error of judgement - not theirs.

And to Les - yes, it has been a while since there has been a 'clutch and plummet' but I doubt very much that our training culture has changed sufficiently to make such accidents simply a phenomena of the past.

 

[Leclused]

It's all very well attending a training course but the trainee must have the opportunity and the inclination to consolidate what they have learned. 

That's true, therefore you need to maintain your knowledge afterwards by training the learned techniques. And I must says  this takes some efforts. Here in Belgium there are several yearly events were you can train you SRT skills. Mostly they are held in quarries (Senzeilles), old military complexes  (Barchon Fortress) but the most impressive is the 2-yearly event on the "Basiliek van Koekelberg" in Brussels. Here a complete rope-parcour is hang out in and around the basilica. Here you can train the most commen SRT skills in an unbelievable scenery.

The topo
http://www.rallyespeleo.be/crbst_8.html

General info page
http://www.rallyespeleo.be/crbst_10.html

There is even a Death-ride installed that everybody can do (for 10Eur). This is to cover the costs of the event a bit.

Rescue techniques can be trained also in the basilica, because you can go there and do SRT training on specific days during the year.

 

[cap n chris]

Fabulous! - Love the video footage!

....wouldn't be allowed in the UK, though, because we're too boring and no-can-do! At last Churches have a use.

 

[Leclused]

Fabulous! - Love the video footage!

....wouldn't be allowed in the UK, though, because we're too boring and no-can-do! At last Churches have a use.

The basilica event is perhaps a bit exceptional. But what about old quarries, that would be possible in the uk too?

Some examples of training quarries which can be rented for training purpose are:

Villers le gambon

http://www.speleoviavlg.be/vlg/vlgdoc.htm  (detailed possibilities)

Senzeilles
www.senzeille.be.cx (Hope this link still works because I can't access it from work )

The only thing you have to do is to bring the ropes and the required equipment material and start training.

This post is perhaps a bit OT, sorry.

Dagobert

 

[paul]

At least some of the responsibility for avoiding these situations lies with the person leading the trip - whoever booked the permit, or who has volunteered to rig, or is the person to whom Mr"I can do srt" is speaking. They have to go beyond accepting "I can do srt" at face value, and ask about some details, trips they have done, and explain the features of this cave which might be harder than expected.

Generally in the clubs (small in size) I've been caving with, most intake is generally a novice (ie no expected skills at all) and the club knows the skills of everyone in the party, the trip leader has probably also been helping to train said novice beforehand, and no nasty surprises await. It is harder in a larger club where not everyone is known, or where a "skilled" person joins that club. But the responsibility still lies on whoever is leading the trip.

No need for certification, or standardisation. But there is a need for communication, and people to take responsibility - not just for themeselves although that is certainly alos a requirement, but for others. Caving is a team activity.

I agree with this. Asking what previuos caving trips they have done should give some idea of their experience of SRT.

It also amazes me how so many cavers I have met even bother to find out about a particular caving trip.

All they want to know is what it's called and where it is. Surely you would think they would like some previous knowledge about the trip such as are there many pitches or are there any difficulties which they haven't encountered before, etc.

I also think that training is a great idea, whether via Clubs or via Professional Instructors but I am totally against any compulsory requirements or certification for SRT or any other caving skills.

 

[hrock]

yes down prosiking and rebelays were an omission from the list.

when i teach srt the first bit is putting your jamers on and going up 2m the next bit is to down prosik it (it is very useful to learn and give me a good idea of the trains ability to stand in a foot loop)

standing in a foot loop could be added to the list as i have found a caver that can go up but could not stand in a foot loop to move cows tails along a travers (its ok though i did it for them rather than just nipping past and leaving them there)

i also think str is better tort all hanging then when there is a load of cave wall to climb on it only get easyer.

i dont want a certification system that would just get expensive and complicated and put people off caving and i thing most cavers are wise enough to know that if you say you can do this and then cock it up and get rescued very quckly people will stop believing you and stop caving with you.

i am also not agains people who are not "srt competent" going caving but the person running the trip needs to know.

to add some back ground this came to my attention mainly though checc where a leader for some uni's i a fresher for others i once met a caver there who was telling me that a carabeena was fine instead of a mailion to do up your harness (he had done 2 srt trips both with a single entrace pich of about 25m and no rebelays)

 

[wvcaveman]

Several years ago, the NSS Safety and Techniques Committee asked US cavers what they feared the most about caving. The answer came back unequivocally as "cavers they weren't familiar with."

Based on that, myself and the former chair of the NSS STC did a presentation/workshop at the 2008 National Speleological Society convention on how to gauge others' caving abilities before the cave trip began in order to reduce risk. We focused primarily on coaching up the opportunity for having a positive conversation with others and from there how to engage potential trip participants to determine their skills, equipment, and experience. Armed with this knowledge, decisions could be made before entering the cave to hopefully create conditions for a positive caving experience, to go practice more before the trip, or even to obtain more training if needed.

So, while I am still learning (after 25+ years of caving), I really think openly communicating before the team even enters the cave is pretty important. And not to be overly promotional, but UK Caving forums is a great opportunity for having these conversations.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Never saw soo much reaction in such a short time , seems to be a delicate subject in the UK.

It is and this is why, or at least my interpretation of why.  There has long been a fear amongst British cavers that 'Big Brother' or the nanny state will seek to curtail the freedom we have always enjoyed.  Many cavers still fear that if we allow or encourage any form of certification scheme it could be used to restrict and control our activities.  Hence my earlier reference to the 'Orwellian nightmare'. 

This is why so many cavers are luke-warm or hostile to the BCA cave leadership schemes.  In reality these schemes have been around for about 30 years now without impacting the club system.

My feeling has always been that we should not dictate to the next generation of cavers what they can have, but ask them instead what they want.  If they want formal SRT training they should be allowed to have it.  I would see it as no bad thing at all if the BCA outlined a basic syllabus for SRT training and issued a record of attendance for those who participated.  I think it would be good for cavers who want to learn, and useful for caving clubs as an indication of their level of competence.  And I don't think the caving world would come crashing down as a result.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

And the next thing ya' know, it would be a requirement for insurance. Commercial training providers would love that!

 

[cap n chris]

Er,.... remind me once again who provides the insurance (free of charge, please note), who provides the syllabus and who supplies the training framework and supporting administration, and the training funding subsidy?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

And the next thing ya' know, it would be a requirement for insurance. Commercial training providers would love that!

Thank you for so graphically providing a perfect illustration of the attitudes I referred to in my earlier post.  New cavers read and learn - this is why you can't have BCA sponsored training courses. 

 

[darren]

We seem to be concentrating on the SRT element of the title, what about the other statements that need standardisation such as

1.  I can climb and am OK with exposure, how will this be codified?
2.  I can do sumps and tight squeezes.
3.  I can drink tea.
4.  I am very good at giving advice.

I'm sure there are lots more. Once started where do we stop?

Also will these standardisations be international or even interregional? If you can srt in Rino are qualified for the berger?

I suppose the real question is who goes caving in a challenging cave with people whose capabilities they don't know.
Is there a caving group a bit like dirkplaces where people who have never met before meet up in laybys for a bit of adventure caving, then go there own way never knowing who they have been with.

 

[cap n chris]

I suppose the real question is who goes caving in a challenging cave with people whose capabilities they don't know.

IIRC Julian Corry and Ray Lea met online and teamed up for an SRT trip and it didn't turn out too good. And it isn't even a particularly challenging cave (if the conditions are favourable).

 

[Andy Sparrow]

We seem to be concentrating on the SRT element of the title, what about the other statements that need standardisation such as

1.  I can climb and am OK with exposure, how will this be codified?
2.  I can do sumps and tight squeezes.
3.  I can drink tea.
4.  I am very good at giving advice.

We are concentrating on the SRT element with good reason.  If you join a caving party and can't get up a ladder they will haul you.  If you can't climb something they will give you a shove.  When you set off up an SRT rope it's a very different situation - you are on your own and anyone who does attempt to rescue you from a situation may put themselves at considerable risk.

There is no other aspect of caving that has such a defined skill set - except for diving, which has long had a system of training and qualification.

Once started where do we stop?

The same  old 'thin-end-of-the-wedge' nonsense graphically illustrated once again.

 

[Muddy Funkster]

Ah but the conditions were!