Carbide

cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
I was going to put this under Conservation but thought it to be a mainstream question rather than a special interest one.

It is 2006. Can anyone give a reasoned, coherent and convincing case for the use of carbide as a lighting source in UK caves if you are new to caving*.

* If you already own a carbide unit it is understandable that you will wish to continuing using it. I'm interested to know whether carbide systems should be under consideration by newbies who have yet to purchase a helmet/lighting system.

I know a lot of people think that carbide is evocative, traditional. proven and "nice" etc. but so is a horse and cart (i.e. out of date, expensive, fiddly, high maintenance, unreliable, heavy and messy).
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
Buy to use? No I can see very little in their favour other than being rechrgeable underground, but with LED systems lasting up to a week with quality light even that two edged argument is pretty poor. Still might buy one for the mantlepiece...
 
T

tubby two

Guest
Really can't think of one what with the quality of LED lighting avaliable now. Do many people still buy them, other than for expeds? and are they all that much better than LED's for that now anyway?

tt.
 
AndyF

AndyF

New member
Carbide - Obsolete Nasty stuff. No good for wet caves, no good in crawls, dangerous on rope...er... whats left?

I've used them in the past, but gave up years ago. LEDs have made it obsolete even for expeditions. Weight for weight carrying disposable batteries is better per burn hour than carbide when used with an LED lamp.

And exactly where do you dispose of spent carbide....put it in the bin it ends up in landfill and then the water table
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
Andy - I agree. But how green are disposable batteries? Possibly greener than spent carbide, but I'll stick to my rechargeable cells, thank you. Disposables for emergency light, maybe.....
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
Carbide ash is essentially hydrated calcium oxide, the basic ingredient of old fashined mortar. Left exposed to air it will react with the ambient CO2 and return to calcium carbonate. The really non green part is in its manufacture or inapropriate disposal - quick and slaked lime will kill pretty much everything it comes into contact with. However, old lime burning sites do recover quite well in time. Not sure what the manufacture of batteries or their disposal is like for greeness, but you dont get something for nothing. Wonder what the total carbon footprint of manufacture, use and disposal of carbide v batteries is?
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
Personally i've not user carbide for even foreign trips since about 2000.
Carbide is dead, long live the LED.

Actually i do remember using other peoples carbides as photo light source. shake them up a bit so that they flare and then use a long exposure. it works quite well to light up big passages...
 
AndyF

AndyF

New member
Peter Burgess said:
Andy - I agree. But how green are disposable batteries? Possibly greener than spent carbide, but I'll stick to my rechargeable cells, thank you. Disposables for emergency light, maybe.....
Click to expand...

Of course, rechargables are preferable, I was thinking of the arguement for using disposables on remote expeditions where charging facilities may not be available.

Previously carbide was the only option in such a situation.

Also, my local tip has a proper recycling point for diposable batteries
 
AndyF

AndyF

New member
Brains said:
Wonder what the total carbon footprint of manufacture, use and disposal of carbide v batteries is?
Click to expand...

It's a good point. I suspect that carbide may possibly be better, due to it's more simple manufacture. Then again batteries (if disposed of properly) get recycled, whereas Carbide doesn't. Hmm...dunno :roll:

Now I have an LED with a good beam, I'm not going back....
 
nickwilliams

nickwilliams

Well-known member
Brains said:
Carbide ash is essentially hydrated calcium oxide, the basic ingredient of old fashined mortar. Left exposed to air it will react with the ambient CO2 and return to calcium carbonate. The really non green part is in its manufacture or inapropriate disposal - quick and slaked lime will kill pretty much everything it comes into contact with. However, old lime burning sites do recover quite well in time.
Click to expand...

It used to be said that if you dumped spent carbide in an active streamway rather than leaving it to fester in a damp passage it would be quickly neutralised and do no harm to the cave environment. I think that's probably ill-informed bollocks.

Some years ago, a very well known and respected cave diver (who posts regularly to this forum and may care to corroborate my comments) told me that from his own experience one of the problems with people dumping spent carbide in stream caves is that it ends up in the sumps, coating everything in a fine layer of white silt. Presumably, at least until it has reacted with any acidic compounds in the water, it is toxic to any cave life living in the silt or the water it comes into contact with.

Graham Proudlove, a man who knows a thing or two about cave fauna, will tell you that there is more life than most UK cavers might believe living in our caves and we ought to take more care of it.

Nick.
 
M

MSD

Guest
I would never advise a new caver to buy a carbide lamp and indeed I advised my son against it just a year or two ago. I occasionally use my carbide lamp but more and more I just use LED. The convenience and freedom from not having something hanging from your waist and a pipe/cable to snag is great.

Apart from anything, LED + rechargeables is cheaper than carbide. Now that ought to be an argument that strike home with the average caver!

Mark
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
Well as i said i've not used it on expedition since about 2000
my guess is that there is
1) a large installed legacy uderbase
2) some people will carry on buying it new for a good few years yet

It'd be interesting to ask the shops how many they sell these days,
 
danthecavingman

danthecavingman

Member
Surely there is only one use for Carbide, or Bernies Fizzy Rocks as we call them in SUSS.

You need some of Bernies fizzy rocks, an empty baked bean can, a pringles tube (empty again), a ball or potato that is a snug fit down the pringles tube and some gaffer tape. Water is also required, as is a match / lighter or other naked flame.......

Hours of drunken fun can be had at Bullpot Farm, Penwyllt and various other locations around the UK!

Duck you suckers!
 
Brains

Brains

Well-known member
but you had better wear your oilskins - seagull puree is very messy apparently! (I only speak from 3rd hand accounts, you understand...)
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Blimey, Brains, you're quick.... I only kept my comment on screen for a minute before deciding to delete it on the grounds that people would get a new idea on how to murder seagulls....
 
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