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CNCC permit system

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M

madjbs

Guest
dunc said:
31.   Short Drop
38.   Wretched Rabbit
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These caves require a CNCC permit for access.
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I have been caving extensively in these caves but I have yet to hear of a CNCC permit. What is it? Is it a permit that beginners must acquire in case they go missing or something? As I am not a beginner I have never tried to apply for one.
 
D

damian

Well-known member
madjbs said:
dunc said:
31.  Short Drop
38.  Wretched Rabbit
Click to expand...
These caves require a CNCC permit for access.
Click to expand...

I have been caving extensively in these caves but I have yet to hear of a CNCC permit. What is it? Is it a permit that beginners must acquire in case they go missing or something? As I am not a beginner I have never tried to apply for one.
Click to expand...

Permission to visit these caves is not freely given by the landowner. Instead they require that the CNCC (The Council of Northern Caving Clubs) issue permits to caving clubs according to strict rules, relating to dates and the number of parties per day. People do cave without these permits but If the landowners become aware of this, they are likely to withdraw all caving rights.

Please have a look at http://cncc.org.uk/ for more information. Short Drop is on Leck Fell and Wretched Rabbit is on Casterton Fell. All you have to do is write a letter on club-headed notepaper to the relevant volunteer Meets Secretary, enclosing a SAE.
 
M

madjbs

Guest
damian said:
madjbs said:
dunc said:
31.   Short Drop
38.   Wretched Rabbit
Click to expand...
These caves require a CNCC permit for access.
Click to expand...

I have been caving extensively in these caves but I have yet to hear of a CNCC permit. What is it? Is it a permit that beginners must acquire in case they go missing or something? As I am not a beginner I have never tried to apply for one.
Click to expand...

Permission to visit these caves is not freely given by the landowner. Instead they require that the CNCC (The Council of Northern Caving Clubs) issue permits to caving clubs according to strict rules, relating to dates and the number of parties per day. People do cave without these permits but If the landowners become aware of this, they are likely to withdraw all caving rights.

Please have a look at http://cncc.org.uk/ for more information. Short Drop is on Leck Fell and Wretched Rabbit is on Casterton Fell. All you have to do is write a letter on club-headed notepaper to the relevant volunteer Meets Secretary, enclosing a SAE.
Click to expand...

This looks like a very unfair system. What happens if I am not a member of a club? Some people may enjoy caving without the regulations of a club environment. Do you think the strict regulations for the permit may be "relaxed" slightly if a small "donation" is included in the application?
 
D

damian

Well-known member
madjbs said:
This looks like a very unfair system. What happens if I am not a member of a club? Some people may enjoy caving without the regulations of a club environment. Do you think the strict regulations for the permit may be "relaxed" slightly if a small "donation" is included in the application?
Click to expand...

In answer to the last question, no!

Unfortunately someone has to pay for the work of the CNCC in administering acess on behalf of cavers. This is done by caving clubs that are members of the BCA, with some of their membership going towards supporting the Regional Caving Councils. As such, it seems fair (although many disagree, but hopefully this thread won't descend to this!) that permits are issued to those clubs only.

If you want to pay a small "donation", why not form your own club (of a handful of cavers) and join the BCA using this small donation.
 
M

madjbs

Guest
damian said:
madjbs said:
This looks like a very unfair system. What happens if I am not a member of a club? Some people may enjoy caving without the regulations of a club environment. Do you think the strict regulations for the permit may be "relaxed" slightly if a small "donation" is included in the application?
Click to expand...

In answer to the last question, no!
Click to expand...

Well in that case it would probably be easier if I saved my small "donation" for whoever catches me caving permitless. To be honest it would probably be easier anyway because I will not have to post off letters to ask to go caving. In the long run it will also work out cheaper as I will only have to make a "donation" to the angry caver, angry landowner etc... when caught and not every time I want to go caving.

On a different topic, I was under the impression there was a new act which allowed walkers to freely tramp where they liked in the area. Perhaps if I dressed as an ordinary walker I could use my right to navigate the fell. I would only become a caver as it were once I entered the cave, where I could then produce all my kit from a large rucksack. Could this be the easy legitimate way to go caving that people have been looking for?
 
D

Dave

Member
angry caver, angry landowner etc... when caught and not every time I want to go caving.

[/quote]

Wow, congratulations on having such a good attitude towards caving a cavers in general  :confused: !
 
M

madjbs

Guest
bat said:
madjbs said:
when caught
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we all get stoped
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Batty, I can't help but feel that you have missed my point. I stated that if I was "caught" then I would be handing my so called "donation" (which apparently the CNCC are not willing to collect ::) ) to whoever feels offended by my presence. This could have one of two effects, the first is that the landowner, caver etc.. will just not bother reporting my activities and the second is that they may decide to become more friendly towards cavers due to my friendly "donation", if they were so inclined they could use the money to build a new footpath or what have you :). Either way it can only be beneficial :clap:

Mr. Burgess, please can you keep your accusations of troll ownership to yourself, it is becoming rather repetitive .

Thanks Guys
 
paul

paul

Moderator
madjbs said:
damian said:
madjbs said:
This looks like a very unfair system. What happens if I am not a member of a club? Some people may enjoy caving without the regulations of a club environment. Do you think the strict regulations for the permit may be "relaxed" slightly if a small "donation" is included in the application?
Click to expand...

In answer to the last question, no!
Click to expand...

Well in that case it would probably be easier if I saved my small "donation" for whoever catches me caving permitless. To be honest it would probably be easier anyway because I will not have to post off letters to ask to go caving. In the long run it will also work out cheaper as I will only have to make a "donation" to the angry caver, angry landowner etc... when caught and not every time I want to go caving.

On a different topic, I was under the impression there was a new act which allowed walkers to freely tramp where they liked in the area. Perhaps if I dressed as an ordinary walker I could use my right to navigate the fell. I would only become a caver as it were once I entered the cave, where I could then produce all my kit from a large rucksack. Could this be the easy legitimate way to go caving that people have been looking for?
Click to expand...

In case you are not just a wind-up merchant:

The CROW Act does not at the moment allow free access to caves on any land. This has yet to be tested with a test case.

Forming a club even with two or three members is very easy as is joining BCA and hence allowing access to CNCC permits.

Arranging a permit is easy and cheap.

The alternative is access to the caves are withdrawn. And before you reply "I'll still be able to visit thses caves and stuff the lot of you" if a landowner wishes to prevent access to a cave, there are very easy ways of doing this.

You would not just have a pissed off landowner but a LARGE number of very pissed off cavers.

 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
I have to say peter - this is an extremely sensitive topic. Please try and keep on topic with some sensible suggestions rather than just have a go at madjbs.

madjbs - you are in danger of upsetting a lot of people here, if you are of the opinion that you are going to ignore all agreements/codes of conduct with regards to access to caves in the dales, then I'd just slink off into the mist if I were you - and not shout about it all over a public website.

Like I say - you are just piercing the lid on a can of worms and you risk upsetting an awful lot of cavers.

There has been much discussion on these forums about the CROW act if you care to use the search facilitly. I'd suggest reading up on what has been discussed previously before you start up the debate again.

The CNCC permit system is well established and has been pretty much adhered to over the years. If its not for you - then I'd stay schtum, just be aware that the consequences of your selfish actions could have wide ranging implications.
 
M

madjbs

Guest
Thank you Sam, this was just the type of reply I was looking for. I am new too this forum so I don't know about some of the discussion phobias some people may have. I am not trying to say that I am going to disrespect the current agreements, I am trying to say that perhaps new methods that have not been tried before could be utilised. Everyone loves a bit of extra cash and in my experience from living around the world, I have found a little cash can go a long way in securing a stronger relationship with the landowner, police, fellow cavers etc...I see this method is not a tried and tested method of getting someone off your back when it comes to caving but if we don’t give it a try then we will never know if it may work or not. How many of you guys that would report a fellow caver for caving without a permit would happily relax a little if a small donation to your beer fund was made? Come on guys, everyone loves money, it may just work :)
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
erm - unlocked

- I'll split the topic.

- now split from the new to caving stuff - and all the crappy troll nonsense deleted.  :mad:

Hope I haven't offended anyone by deleting their posts - but they where all unrelated to either topic.
:hug:
 
P

Peter Burgess

New member
Someone explain to our friend why his idea stinks. I don't think I have the patience today, except to say that to compromise principles with bribes/ back handers/ call it what you will is a recipe for resentment, chaos and some serious problems.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
madjbs said:
Thank you Sam, this was just the type of reply I was looking for. I am new too this forum so I don't know about some of the discussion phobias some people may have. I am not trying to say that I am going to disrespect the current agreements, I am trying to say that perhaps new methods that have not been tried before could be utilised. Everyone loves a bit of extra cash and in my experience from living around the world, I have found a little cash can go a long way in securing a stronger relationship with the landowner, police, fellow cavers etc...I see this method is not a tried and tested method of getting someone off your back when it comes to caving but if we don?t give it a try then we will never know if it may work or not. How many of you guys that would report a fellow caver for caving without a permit would happily relax a little if a small donation to your beer fund was made? Come on guys, everyone loves money, it may just work :)
Click to expand...

The problem is that in many cases there have been problems with access to certain areas and caves or mines in the past and depending on various factors, agreements with landowners (and their agents) or in some cases County Councils, etc (for example where a shaft is located near to a Public Footpath) have been drawn up. Often continued access depends on adherence to these agreements.

Sometimes it just require a courtesy call to ask permission, sometimes a small "goodwill fee" is paid in order to gain accesss. Often a local Regional Council (such as the Council for Northern Cave Clubs or Derbyshire Caving Association for example) will have negotiated such agreements to alllow continued access. In some cases the only agreement which could be reached involved a permit system such as the CNCC system for some areas in the Dales.

The problem with your suggestion is that you can experiment with "alternative means" such as bribery to prevent your actions being reported - but if the landowner gets wind of the access agreement being ignored, even by a few, then that access can (and has often in to many cases HAS) be withdrawn.

 
langcliffe

langcliffe

Well-known member
paul said:
The CROW Act does not at the moment allow free access to caves on any land. This has yet to be tested with a test case.
Click to expand...

That is not a true representation of the current situation. As confirmed by a letter in my possession from the Countryside Agency, whether or or not the CROW Act allows access into caves on designated land is unclear, and a High Court test case would be required to clarify the situation.
 
paul

paul

Moderator
langcliffe said:
paul said:
The CROW Act does not at the moment allow free access to caves on any land. This has yet to be tested with a test case.
Click to expand...

That is not a true representation of the current situation. As confirmed by a letter in my possession from the Countryside Agency, whether or or not the CROW Act allows access into caves on designated land is unclear, and a High Court test case would be required to clarify the situation.
Click to expand...

Sorry - is that not what I said?
 
graham

graham

New member
madjbs said:
... Everyone loves a bit of extra cash and in my experience from living around the world, I have found a little cash can go a long way in securing a stronger relationship with the landowner, police, fellow cavers etc...
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Looks like bribery and corruption to me.

Speaking personally, If I found someone ignoring access agreements to land that I owned and they thought that bribing me would ease the situation they would find themselves on the end of a boot at the very least.
 
langcliffe

langcliffe

Well-known member
paul said:
Sorry - is that not what I said?
Click to expand...

Not from my reading. You seem to be saying the CROW Act does not allow access to caves, but this needs to be confirmed. I'm saying that the CROW Act doesn't say anything positive about the issue, and the definitive position will depend on an extrapolation from the examples of permitted use.

However, I suspect that I'm probably being unduly sensitive on this issue, because people who should know better continue to come out with statements that misrepresent the situation.
 
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