UK Caving

NEWS, NOTICES & THE FORUM => Caving Chat => Topic started by: David Rose on February 22, 2021, 04:41:06 pm

Title: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: David Rose on February 22, 2021, 04:41:06 pm
The way I'm hearing Boris Johnson's statement today is that it should be legally possible for people to go caving outside their home areas in groups of up to six from 12 April.

Does everyone agree?
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: JoshW on February 22, 2021, 04:45:24 pm
Agreed!
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on February 22, 2021, 04:46:56 pm
That's the way I read it, but I suppose we'd best wait until the legislation is formalised.

After all, the legislation and guidance have not been particularly closely aligned so far, so why should we expect that to change now...
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: ZombieCake on February 22, 2021, 04:56:09 pm
Makes sense, but a note of caution should be taken in that the current government has a habit of rapid u-turns with very little notice. Hopefully there'll be some stability at last.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: mikem on February 22, 2021, 05:03:34 pm
Organised outdoor sports are timetabled for 29 March.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: JoshW on February 22, 2021, 05:04:38 pm
Organised outdoor sports are timetabled for 29 March.

If this is like last time, I thought there was a chunk of requirements to be considered 'organised'.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: mikem on February 22, 2021, 05:07:28 pm
Indeed & huts are still limited into May, or possibly June. Travel is also restricted until the April date.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Ed on February 22, 2021, 11:07:10 pm
Not really

The stay at home rule will end but people should stay local as much as possible
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Alex on February 22, 2021, 11:09:44 pm
I thought the stay at home order ended on 29th of March or have they moved it already :( ?

Just checked the BBC it's then the stay at home order ends and "Formally organised outdoor sports can also restart" so I read that as we can go caving again, provided we plan it as a club meet, to make it formal, not read the rules in detail yet though.

The stay local is only advisory then. It's alright for those of you who who live in the caving areas, who saying you should continue to stay local and not go caving until May, June, 2030, whenever, but you don't get affected, so can quite happily tell other people not to cave, but carry on yourself. But, you know what that is completely unfair on the rest of us who don't have the good fortune to live next to the caves. Please stop with the peer pressure, as how can driving an hour make any bloody difference, for god sake we will be more isolated once we are in the caves then when we are at home most of the time.

Yes I accept one or two may have a crash on the way (hopefully not) but that's like one or two extra beds tops, so it really don't make a difference. So please enough already, as over a quarter of the pop has been vaccinated, it will be at what 35 - 40% by then, so all the people who are really getting ill from it should be protected, so don't tell me caving is going to kill granny, because it's not (she's already dead anyway, years ago).

Our sport will have no effect on the overall numbers whether we go caving or not anyway.

Finally looking at the rules why cannot caving huts begin to open on the April date, though, yes with restrictions, sounds like you can camp in a field though as that counts as self contained? They managed it with similar restrictions last time?
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: JoshW on February 22, 2021, 11:12:41 pm
Indeed & huts are still limited into May, or possibly June. Travel is also restricted until the April date.

I thought I saw something about self catered accommodation being 12 April on the bbc website
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on February 22, 2021, 11:14:56 pm
I thought the stay at home order ended on 29th of March or have they moved it already :( ?

Does this help?

Quote
As part of step one, there will be further limited changes from 29 March, the week in which most schools will break up for Easter. Outdoor gatherings of either 6 people or 2 households will be allowed, providing greater flexibility for families to see each other. This includes in private gardens.

Outdoor sports facilities, such as tennis and basketball courts, will be allowed to reopen, and people can take part in formally organised outdoor sports.

At this point, the Stay at Home order will end, although many lockdown restrictions will remain.

For example, you should continue to work from home where possible, and overseas travel remains banned, aside for a small number of reasons.
Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-sets-out-roadmap-to-cautiously-ease-lockdown-restrictions (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-sets-out-roadmap-to-cautiously-ease-lockdown-restrictions)
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on February 22, 2021, 11:16:41 pm
I thought I saw something about self catered accommodation being 12 April on the bbc website

Same source as above:
Quote
Step 2, no earlier than 12 April:

Non-essential retail, personal care premises, such as hairdressers and nail salons, and public buildings, such as libraries and community centres, will reopen.
Most outdoor attractions and settings, including zoos, and theme parks, will also reopen although wider social contact rules will apply in these settings to prevent indoor mixing between different households. Drive-in cinemas and drive-in performances will also be permitted.
Indoor leisure facilities, such as gyms and swimming pools, will also reopen - but only for use by people on their own or with their household.
Hospitality venues can serve people outdoors only. There will be no need for customers to order a substantial meal with alcohol, and no curfew - although customers must order, eat and drink while seated.
Self-contained accommodation, such as holiday lets, where indoor facilities are not shared with other households, can also reopen.
Funerals can continue with up to 30 people, and the numbers able to attend weddings, receptions and commemorative events such as wakes will rise to 15 (from 6).
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Jenny P on February 22, 2021, 11:21:52 pm
Caving club huts come under the heading of "Hostels" according to the rules.  The requirements for re-opening these may not be the same as what is generally called "self-catering accommodation", where you might expect the accommodation to be booked by a family or perhaps a "bubble group".  Hostels have their own set of rules because they may be used by a number of people who have no connection to each other - think of Youth Hostels.

The regulations are extremely complicated and cover many pages but BCA should be able to give some clear guidance in the not too distant future.  Better to get it absolutely correct than rush out with advice which may turn out to be iffy.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on February 22, 2021, 11:36:46 pm
Caving club huts come under the heading of "Hostels" according to the rules.  The requirements for re-opening these may not be the same as what is generally called "self-catering accommodation"

Good point Jenny. Hostels are in step 3, but you need to go to the full document to find this:

Quote
Step 3: At least 5 weeks after step 2, no earlier than 17th May
120. In Step 3, all but the most high-risk sectors will be able to reopen. In all sectors,
COVID-Secure guidance will remain in place and premises must not cater for groups
larger than the legal limits. Sectors which will reopen include:
a. Indoor hospitality, with no requirement for a substantial meal to be served
alongside alcoholic drinks, and no curfew. The requirement to order, eat and drink
while seated (‘table service’) will remain;
b. Remaining outdoor entertainment, such as outdoor theatres and cinemas;
c. Indoor entertainment, such as museums, cinemas and children’s play areas;
d. Remaining accommodation, such as hotels, hostels and B&Bs;
e. Adult indoor group sports and exercise classes; and
f. Some large events, including conferences, theatre and concert
performances and sports events.
Source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/963491/COVID-19_Response_-_Spring_2021.pdf (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/963491/COVID-19_Response_-_Spring_2021.pdf)

Either way, no saying they won't change their minds before then, or write something else into the legislation, so best not get too carried away...
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Cap'n Chris on February 22, 2021, 11:56:52 pm
...it should be legally possible for people to go caving outside their home areas in groups of up to six from 12 April.

It's been possible all along; the legality seems to be the debating point, though. Restrictions v guidelines v law.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: pwhole on February 23, 2021, 12:11:21 am
It's further complicated (or simplified) by the 'hostel' aspect of the building not being that relevant for many club members. I just need to use the 'club hut' to get changed, collect and return ropes etc. and generally go caving. I rarely need to stay over, as I just about live close enough (as do many other members), and my sole interaction with 'shared' facilities is usually the kettle and the fridge to make a cup of tea. It's often that there's only three or four of us in the entire building, and it's huge for four. So I would be reasonably confident that we could re-open that aspect of the place sooner, and just restrict staying-over, fine dining and total piss-ups until later in the year. If it's safe enough for a few people to go caving, then it should be equally so to use the facilities. We are right in the middle of the village though, so that aspect has to be considered too.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Ed on February 23, 2021, 07:05:24 am
Bear in mind in certain parts on North Yorkshire covid administration to hospital figures are still going up

There is also the issue of the image of the sport and the good will of locals /land owners

If everyone suddenly thinks its OK to drive here there and everywhere to go caving there very well are likely to be negative impacts
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Tomferry on February 23, 2021, 07:09:06 am
When I have read it all I also thought March the 29th , does anyone know if we shall be in tiers again so for example if I am tier 2 I could only travel to a tier 2 to go caving ?
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: mikem on February 23, 2021, 07:19:40 am
There's no mention of tiers, but still plenty of time for them to be added if felt necessary. This is also just the schedule for England - I haven't seen what Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland are planning.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: tobyk on February 23, 2021, 08:04:12 am
Bear in mind in certain parts on North Yorkshire covid administration to hospital figures are still going up

I work at a West Yorkshire hospital, which covers a large part of North Yorkshire including some of the caving areas. Our covid cases are definitely going down.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on February 23, 2021, 08:51:33 am
There is also the issue of the image of the sport and the good will of locals /land owners

If everyone suddenly thinks its OK to drive here there and everywhere to go caving there very well are likely to be negative impacts

Compared to the number of people out walking and cycling, I very much doubt cavers will have any impact on visitor numbers or public perception. But obviously don't be a dick and probably avoid honey pot sites at peak times (unless you want to blend into the crowds).
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Tomferry on February 23, 2021, 09:09:21 am
Normality had to start somewhere that is one thing  ;D
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Ed on February 23, 2021, 10:08:31 am
Bear in mind in certain parts on North Yorkshire covid administration to hospital figures are still going up

I work at a West Yorkshire hospital, which covers a large part of North Yorkshire including some of the caving areas. Our covid cases are definitely going down.

Positive admissions to Harrogate are still increasing
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: mikem on February 23, 2021, 11:01:54 am
On Thursday they only had 2 more patients than the previous week: https://www.hdft.nhs.uk/coronavirus/trust-wide-current-statistics/
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Ed on February 23, 2021, 12:47:27 pm
On Thursday they only had 2 more patients than the previous week: https://www.hdft.nhs.uk/coronavirus/trust-wide-current-statistics/

That's in patients.... Not those that present to CAT and are "well" enough not to require staying.

There are also cases of post first vaccination jab infection.....

Not actually vaccinated until about 14 days after second dose.

All I'm saying is don't expect everything to open up and go back to 2019 for a fair while yet
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Brains on March 19, 2021, 05:52:43 pm
March 29th fast approaching. Travel ban is being lifted and meeting in groups of upto 6 or two family groups will be permitted out doors...
Anyone else planning on an easy caving trip to start getting back in shape?
Obviously no pubs or cafes yet, but a few take away venues may be operating...
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on March 19, 2021, 06:06:42 pm
My local diving centre is reopening on the 29th, so I've booked the day off work for a swim.

I'll probably get out caving at the weekend, but not planned anything specific yet...
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Badlad on March 19, 2021, 06:25:36 pm
I'm lucky enough to be local to several caves so am able to exercise underground anyway.  Very much looking forwards to seeing more of my caving mates around though.  The pubs might be closed for a while yet but the Damson Tree is opening on 29th.  Taking bookings already  ;) :beer2: ;D
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: PeteHall on March 19, 2021, 06:54:44 pm
The pubs might be closed for a while yet

I have heard that there are other options if the pubs are closed.  ;)
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Tomferry on March 20, 2021, 06:34:36 am
I am really hoping to get up to peak cavern to speedwell cavern have never been before and watched so many videos am really excited about going !!!
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Pitlamp on March 20, 2021, 06:53:59 pm
Was a consensus ever arrived at as to whether we can actually travel from 29th March?
(I have a close relative in a care home whom I've not been allowed to travel to see since Christmas day.) I'm slightly struggling to get my head around the rules / guidance / law or whatever it is. Don't want to do anything I'm not supposed to.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Brains on March 20, 2021, 07:20:00 pm
Travel
The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March but many restrictions will remain in place. People should continue to work from home where they can and minimise the number of journeys they make where possible, avoiding travel at the busiest times and routes. Travel abroad will continue to be prohibited, other than for a small number of permitted reasons. Holidays abroad will not be allowed, given it will remain important to manage the risk of imported variants and protect the vaccination programme. The government has launched a new taskforce to review global travel which will report on 12 April.

from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-response-spring-2021/covid-19-response-spring-2021-summary (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-response-spring-2021/covid-19-response-spring-2021-summary)
IMHO caving is an outdoor pursuit, and travelling "off peak" to do so does seem to be allowed? Six socially distanced people / two families are who you can meet with...
What am I missing or getting wrong?
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Cap'n Chris on March 20, 2021, 07:26:25 pm
Travel
The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March

It's a rule, not a law. Therefore you should already have been exercising your liberties as you see fit.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Pitlamp on March 20, 2021, 07:58:02 pm
Travel
The ‘stay at home’ rule will end on 29 March

It's a rule, not a law. Therefore you should already have been exercising your liberties as you see fit.

 :shrug:   :doubt:
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Alex on March 20, 2021, 08:21:50 pm
If you have the vaccine Pitlamp, then your risk to that person I would expect be quite low. So it's entirely down to your conscience, not the bloody clowns we call the government.
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: NewStuff on March 20, 2021, 08:26:11 pm
It's a rule, not a law. Therefore you should already have been exercising your liberties as you see fit.

Rules aren't really you're forte when you're being restricted by them and not enforcing them on others, eh "Smiley Allen"....
Title: Re: The underground route out of lockdown
Post by: Fjell on March 20, 2021, 08:40:52 pm
You have been able to visit care homes for this whole period. It is an approved purpose if that is your thing. One nominated person can now actually go inside properly with tests/ppe, others can use whatever facility is made available (glass screens etc). It is up to each care home how this does (or possibly doesn’t) work.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visiting-care-homes-during-coronavirus/update-on-policies-for-visiting-arrangements-in-care-homes
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