Author Topic: Vote Rostam!!!  (Read 5613 times)

Offline Badlad

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Vote Rostam!!!
« on: October 08, 2021, 08:47:45 pm »
Well I would. 

The BCA AGM is this weekend with two candidates standing for chairman.  Rostam is by far the best to lead the association forward IMO.  He's young (ish), engaged and a devout moderniser.  He is politically astute to all of BCA's weird and wonderful ways and has a deep understanding of the constitution, rule book and policies. 

He's a medical doctor, of course, so potentially a life saver amongst the usual elderly BCA council member  ;) ;D

Give him a chance  :beer2:

Good luck Rostam from me.  I might even rejoin BCA if you get in  ;D

Online Oceanrower

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2021, 08:57:29 pm »
Personally I don’t care who gets the job, I long ago gave up on politics in organisations.

But I do find it VERY off that an administrator (and, I believe, owner) of the biggest caving website in the UK feels it appropriate to endorse one candidate over the other.

You may well claim it’s your own personal opinion but the word “administrator” clearly shows under your user name.

Offline Badlad

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2021, 09:07:38 pm »
Thanks for the endorsement Oceanrower.  I don't have any connection to BCA anymore and think I am entitled to my opinion after all the thousands of hours I have spent volunteering for British caving.  Go Rostam is my opinion.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2021, 09:11:13 pm »
But I do find it VERY off that an administrator (and, I believe, owner) of the biggest caving website in the UK feels it appropriate to endorse one candidate over the other. 

Because (owners of) media organisations should not hold (political) opinions?   :shrug:

That's certainly a new one  :lol:

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2021, 09:51:51 pm »
If the BCA wants to move forward, it needs to keep the people that want change in. If other people want that change to happen, they're going to post about it. Tim is as entitled to hold and express his view/choice as any other person. To say otherwise is depriving them of a choice, vote or voice, and *that* is the "off" way of thinking. I may as well say you can't have an opinion because you like beige jumpers, it makes just as little sense.

And if Rostam does get in, that's enough of an indication that the BCA has changed for the better that I'll personally rejoin.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2021, 10:02:06 pm »
I've not quite made up my mind who I want to vote for. Podcast two tonight, I listened to Russell yesterday and I was quite impressed, a man who has had a very fast rise to the top job because he is capable, or is it because as he joins the person above him gets mysteriously moved aside (bizarre gardening accidents?  :o  )

OR No reason for Badlad to not say his piece in my eyes, anything to get the debate going is a good thing in my book.

I might wait till the 13th day to vote just to pad out the BCA voting statistics.

Good luck candidates.









Online SamT

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2021, 11:00:18 pm »
But I do find it VERY off that an administrator (and, I believe, owner) of the biggest caving website in the UK feels it appropriate to endorse one candidate over the other.

jeeeeezus...  :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

When will you lot get it in to your tiny little minds that UKcaving is just a Forum.... an open forum... not a "website".  It has no agenda, it can't push an agenda, the people, (owners if you must, but they are just long suffering facilitators) cant push an agenda.  How can they.  Anyone can contribute and push their ideas, which are there to be challenged, agreed with, supported, knocked down etc.

Its not a media outlet, there is no control over content (other than a basic level of moderation to ensure things remain civil and content is not slanderous/illegal/unsavoury etc etc)

Its an open forum where anyone... and I mean anyone can voice their opinions, and so long as thing remain civil, those opinions are not censored by anyone.

Why.... how... do people think that its anything other than that.. that Tim and Jane have any ability to push an agenda.

In my opinion Darknessbelow is a 'website' that publishes 'content' and its owners can choose which content it publishes.  I think it definitely pushes an agenda.

Tim and Jane are just Landlords of a caving pub.  They invite people into the bar to chat about all things caving.  They do not discriminately on grounds or race,colour,creed,gender,political or sexual persuasion  in any way.  Only, in a very few cases, has the odd trouble maker, been "barred", as would have happened in any normal pub.

Get grip people.


Offline droid

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2021, 02:15:23 am »
And breathe  :lol:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2021, 06:52:23 am »
I might wait till the 13th day to vote just to pad out the BCA voting statistics.

Pest! :spank: :lol:

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2021, 07:48:43 am »
As a BCA DIM, will I get an email inviting me to cast my vote? (My email is registered.)
Nowt's arrived yet.

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2021, 08:20:22 am »
I don't think being DIM has an effect.

https://british-caving.org.uk/agm-2021/

If you don't have an email by midnight October 10th, contact the return officer.

Online SamT

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2021, 09:39:03 am »
And breathe 
. #triggered

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Offline mrodoc

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2021, 11:34:37 am »
Anybody know how you actually vote?

Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2021, 12:37:35 pm »
Yes I do.

Offline Russell Myers

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2021, 12:59:27 pm »
Anybody know how you actually vote?

All the details are here https://british-caving.org.uk/agm-2021/
JFK: Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2021, 07:01:36 pm »
Specifically:

If you wanted to vote at the AGM you needed to have registered to join the Zoom meeting. However, votes at the AGM are either housekeeping (and therefore uninteresting and uncontroversial) or just votes to push things through to the online ballot (with a very low bar set of _either_ 25% _or_ 10 people voting in favour in order to push it through to the ballot). Theoretically amendments could be proposed, but arguably any remotely controversial amendment (i.e. not just fixing a typo) should also go through to the online ballot.

The significant votes (elections and motions) will therefore almost certainly be pushed through to the online ballot and you should get an email through before it opens (but probably only shortly before it opens).

Online 2xw

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 11:14:29 am »
I wouldn't worry too much about Tim promoting his views, the CSCC reps are doing the same in their email networks in favour of Russell.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2021, 11:44:16 am »
I wouldn't worry too much about Tim promoting his views, the CSCC reps are doing the same in their email networks in favour of Russell.

No doubt some people are supporting one person and some the other - anyone is perfectly entitled to let others know who they favour and why.  And similarly their views about the other proposals on the list.

As long as people make up their minds and actually do cast a vote we will get a result which accords with the majority view - whatever that happens to be.  (So some may be pleased and others disappointed - happens in national politics as well.)

Thanks to Ari & Co. for setting up the voting system as it has worked perfectly OK for me so I've already cast my votes on all the assorted proposals.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2021, 11:46:01 am »
Not sure what you've see 2xw, but I've personally seen no recommendations either way on who to vote for as chair from any of my clubs and there has been no recommendation from the CSCC on this point. Not that I have any problem at all with an organisation having an opinion and voicing it to its members.

For reference, the below was circulated on the CSCC mailing list:

Quote
All BCA members whose emails addresses BCA holds should by now have received an email with a 'voting token' enabling them to vote in the ballot for the election of BCA chair and on the various constitutional changes that have been proposed.

If you have not received this email, you should contact the returning officer and ask for this to be sent.

Voting will remain open until midnight on Sunday 31st October 2021.

Please forward this email to your members so that they know to expect an email from BCA regarding the voting.

ELECTIONS

There are two candidates for Chair, Russell Myers (current acting Chair) and Rostam Namaghi (currently the Publications and Information Officer). You can read their election statements here. There are also links to recorded interviews with both candidates linked from the same page.

Please take the time to read/listen and form your own views on the candidates.

 CONSTITUTIONAL PROPOSALS

1. ANCHOR SCHEME

The proposal to allow regional councils to appoint their own bolt installers is uncontentious and is supported by the CSCC Equipment Officer, Andrew Atkinson.

2. ALTERATION/REMOVAL OF NON-INTERFERENCE CLAUSE (s10.1)

This clause prevents the BCA getting involved in the internal workings of a member such as a club, regional council or access body unless invited to do so by the member.

A poll conducted by BCA of its members returned a majorty in favour of the clause remaining unaltered.

There are various alternatives to the current clause, but if you would like to keep the current position of non-interference, the way to achieve this is by voting against all the alternatives. That way, if they do not reach the margin required for constitutional change, all the alternatives will fail and the status quo will prevail, so it is not a case of needing to vote for what you might see as the least bad option.

3.  MERGER OF EQUIPMENT AND TRAINING COMMITTEES

This has been included under the heading of Simplifying the Bureaucratic Structure. Although in general, such simplifications are often a good thing, in this case, the inclusion of the merger of these two committees is a complication.

CSCC's Equipment and Training Officers are both against this proposed mergers, as is the BCA's Training Committee. To the best of my knowledge, since the resignation of the previous convenor of the BCA's Equipment Committee, the committee has not met to discuss the proposal.

The CSCC's Training Officer, Dave Keegan, read the following statement at the BCA eAGM on behalf of the BCA Training Committee:

"The training committee has discussed and is against the proposal as a whole. The issue is with the merging of training and E&C, and the committee is open to becoming a working group. The training committee is open to future discussions to streamline processes and improve the training on offer to the BCA in the future."

The CSCC's Equipment Officer, Andrew Atkinson, is also against the proposed merger. He believes that the two committees provide different perspectives and that a merger would have the effect of reducing overall safety standards. He has used the following example to explain his reasoning:

"Given a choice of knot, it is easy to do a test and say that in these circumstances this breaks at this force. Some knots are stronger than others. However, it may be that the stronger knot is really hard to make and difficult for people to recognise but works in situations where the weaker knot does not, and vice versa. It is equipment's role to look at the knots. It is a training role to look at whether the knot with less strength is better to be taught as it leads to less catastrophic failures in less experienced cavers. If the committees are combined it is likely only one will be deemed safe."

4. 5.& 6. RE-WRITES & UPDATING

All these seem uncontentious.I am happy to discuss any of the above further if anyone would like to contact me direct.

Linda Wilson
CSCC Representative on BCA Council   

Offline JoshW

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2021, 01:17:03 pm »

Quote
A poll conducted by BCA of its members returned a majorty in favour of the clause remaining unaltered.

Interesting, did I miss this poll? last I remember seeing was the vote at the last AGM with a majority wanting the clause to be changed
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Online 2xw

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2021, 02:25:37 pm »

Quote
A poll conducted by BCA of its members returned a majorty in favour of the clause remaining unaltered.

Interesting, did I miss this poll? last I remember seeing was the vote at the last AGM with a majority wanting the clause to be changed

I don't recall that either, but then there is a massive difference between what actually happens at the BCA and what is reported back to the CSCC so perhaps it got thrown in then.

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2021, 03:10:53 pm »
Quote
A poll conducted by BCA of its members returned a majorty in favour of the clause remaining unaltered.

This isn't true but I can see why it was said. There was a consultation circulated that asked respondents to rank their preference of three options; delete it, amend it and leave it unchanged. It was marked as single transferrable vote and on the first pass 16 of 38 respondents ranked leave it be as their first choice - the largest minority. This lost in the second round to 22 who wanted an amendment (once delete it was removed and votes transferred).

It wasn't the point of the consultation though - that was to try and gauge a range of views (which it did successfully) rather than to poll popularity. If you read the consultation document (which can be found here https://british-caving.org.uk/about-bca/working-groups/constitution-operations-group/ ) you will see that it is a qualitative analysis of the comments and doesn't really make reference to the preference question. This is because of a heavy selection bias - this was engaged with overwhelmingly by members of CSCC member clubs. That isn't a bad thing, this is people who feel affected by something making their voice heard - but it isn't a poll of BCA members. What it did do was inform the wording of the amendments that went to the AGM so that a choice could be presented and polled.

PS I do appreciate all the support I've recieved over the last few days, it should make for an interesting outcome. I'm definitely not a natural campaigner (I find it really embarrassing) and am a bit long winded so if I don't win I have the excuses already to hand  ;D

Offline Cavematt

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2021, 03:22:42 pm »
This is worrying. I certainly don’t remember seeing any such poll, and I am a BCA member.

Either I missed this poll, or this is a misunderstanding from the CSCC representative. Alternatively, this could be a strategy to encourage southern cavers to vote in a certain way by presenting selected facts in particular ways.

Hopefully the progressive CSCC folks on here will be able to clarify things :)

The wording seems to be intended to ‘scare’ people into thinking that if they vote in support of this proposal, the BCA is going to start interfering with members.

The whole point of the voting period was to allow time for clubs (and regional councils, if they wish) to lobby their members to vote in a particular way, thus maintaining their democratic involvement despite not having a direct vote. Therefore, if CSCC wanted to lobby their members to vote for ‘no change’ to section 10.1, there is nothing wrong with this, as long as this has been properly considered, democratically decided, and preferably backed up by facts.

The wording above seems intended to engineer a ‘no change’ outcome but stops short of saying this is a CSCC recommendation.

I hope this isn’t another example of CSCC being used to push a personal agenda?

I'm happy to say that I have voted to delete that section of the constitution altogether. It simply isn't needed and has too much potential to be used by rogue individuals to block genuine democratically agreed BCA work.
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2021, 03:59:14 pm »
Interesting that last years AGM voted on the following proposal,

"Consideration of a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution to be
presented at BCA 2021 AGM".  Alongside this an explanation as to why this was thought necessary.

The results were members voted 436 FOR and only 45 AGAINST

Having an option to maintain the status quo seems to fly in the face of that.  What most members will not know is that the author of the CSCC report (above) was at the heart of the long running discrimination issue which led up to that proposal.  It would be a shame if CSCC lobbying overturned the 2020 AGM ballot.

Offline Ed W

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2021, 04:21:59 pm »
Right, I am pi$$ed off.  I am sick to death of the constant whining and carping and undermining of the CSCC that has been occurring.  Perhaps as CSCC Chair I should be more tactful, but all I see is an un-ending spite being unloaded onto a group of people who work their socks off to try and benefit all underground explorers in the south.  I for one am very proud of the work that CSCC Officers do, mostly without recognition or thanks.  Yes I would be the first to agree that the CSCC needs change, indeed that is why I stood as chair last year, but I am utterly dismayed by the vitriol directed at individuals just because they hold a differing view.  It is notable that the attacks continue despite real progress being made in some areas.

I am not a political animal by nature, indeed I spent most of my caving career actively trying to avoid any involvement in committees and representative bodies.  After a year or so of getting caught up in it I see I was wiser in my youth!  Frankly the behaviours shown by many in the UK caving politics scene are those most usually seen on the playground of junior schools.  The incessant back room manoeuvring, personal attacks and shear two faced sniping are something to behold.  For some democracy is only acceptable if it reflects their own agenda and they see anyone with a different viewpoint as the enemy to be eliminated.

In short we have a downright toxic system with some really nasty behaviour that sucks the life and soul out of all involved.  For me it has wrecked caving as a hobby that I have loved for over 35 years.  I have gone from being underground once or twice every week to essentially having no interest in the sport whatsoever it has been that poisonous.  It has also destroyed many other good people, including personal friends over the last few years.  No one person or group is solely responsible for this, but EVERYONE involved (including some who have posted on this thread) need to look at their actions and ask if they are part of the problem - as pointed out by a recent BCA Chair who was hounded out by this sort of behaviour.

My honest opinionis that BCA is on the cusp of collapse and unless the average British Caving politician can grow up and stop acting like a bunch of spoilt 5 year olds then it will be the worse for the sport.

It goes without saying that these are my own personal views and are not posted in my capacity as CSCC Chair.

 

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