Hi,

Sorry if this is in the wrong place or not allowed but I am looking for an electrician based in the Manchester area or the midlands to work with me on a artificial cave build. the project is for an outdoor activities centre and the powers that be are demanding an emergency lighting system. I think someone who has the skills who is actually interested in what we are doing is needed.
If you are an electrical engineer or know a someone who would be interested in being involved in the project please get it touch ASAP! The system is all underground so someone with good outdoor electrical experience is required.

again sorry if not allowed - please don't cyber bully me! 

Hi Elle,

Afraid I can't help but welcome to the forum and good luck with the project. Hopefully someone will be along to help.  And don't worry, there'll be no cyber bullying here.

elle said:

Hi,

Sorry if this is in the wrong place or not allowed but I am looking for an electrician based in the Manchester area or the midlands to work with me on a artificial cave build. the project is for an outdoor activities centre and the powers that be are demanding an emergency lighting system. I think someone who has the skills who is actually interested in what we are doing is needed.
If you are an electrical engineer or know a someone who would be interested in being involved in the project please get it touch ASAP! The system is all underground so someone with good outdoor electrical experience is required.

again sorry if not allowed - please don't cyber bully me! 

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Hi, Welcome. I know someone who would either be able to do this for you, having done it previously, or would point you in the right direction.

Send me a PM with some details and I'll reply 

Hello Elle - good luck with your project.

But . . . if an "artificial cave" is supposed to replicate the real thing, wouldn't the simplest (& most cost effective) solution be to impose a rule that anyone entering must wear a back up light?

Or maybe incorporate a few openable panels to allow natural light in / provide emergency escape routes? Or maybe regular (small) transparent panels with covers which can be removed if necessary, to let light in? Installing a backup lighting system may produce more problems than it "solves".

You're obviously at the mercy of the powers that be here - to some extent - but surely they're overthinking? You can argue that control measures (for lighting) on a normal caving trip are also more than adequate for an artificial cave. The way to argue from a position of strength is to have done a robust risk assessment first (perhaps with the help of an experienced caver, if you're not a caver yourself). Another weapon in your armoury would be results of discussions with (and alternative suggestions from) expert cavers. This forum is a great way to get access to a lot of very experienced cavers.

If they really won't listen to reason, how about just running a low voltage, cheap, Christmas rope light along the ceiling? This gets away from having any wires inside the cave (which themselves are a hazard in these circumstances).

P.S. a roof rope light may only need a cheap annual PAT test. A fully installed lighting system would fall under other regulations, perhaps costing rather more to inspect & maintain.

I suspect the emergency bit is the problem, needs to be activated automatically when power is interrupted?

Power? Surely people going "caving" have lights on their heads?

This is all beginning to sound like health and safety gone mad. Aren't caves supposed to be dark?  The more I think about this the more the only reasonable solution is for each person to carry a backup light. After all, that trains them in good practice for real caving right from the outset.

Outdoor activities... Artificial cave...  Possible scenario being non-caver panicking in dark underground tunnel, so h+s require emergency lighting (installed in convenient stalactites, maybe) to dispel the treacherous shadows and facilitate rescue?

ianball11 said:

I went to the one in Penrith, we borrowed knee and elbow pads, helmet and torch.  It was great, but we won't be going again.

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I should listen to myself more often.

If it weren't for being wrong I would have been adamant that there were leds lighting emergency escape hatches every few metres and we didn't need head torches. 

I distinctly remember missing the protection of the shin a pair of wellies and long wet sock gives you and having the usual success with cave photography.

(Further error I did go back a few years later.)

Roger W said:

Outdoor activities... Artificial cave...  Possible scenario being non-caver panicking in dark underground tunnel, so h+s require emergency lighting (installed in convenient stalactites, maybe) to dispel the treacherous shadows and facilitate rescue?

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Hm; I wonder what Ken Pearce would have had to say about all this . . .
(Bearing in mind one of his better known quotes!)

But let's not hijack the OP's topic. 

A bit more context may help with some informed suggestions.

If the ?artificial cave? or ?series of small tunnels and passages?  are located in a multi use building that is fully covered by emergency lighting / fire alarms etc, then this new ?room? would need to meet the standard elsewhere.  If the fire alarm is activated in the main building then some automatic emergency lighting in the small passages and tunnels could prove really useful to getting 15 small children out in good time.

If on the other hand it is some concrete tubes in a field then that could be a different story.

A few years ago on a Scout camp the fire brigade had to be called to extract a youngster from a ?cave bus? (a bus full of small passages and tunnels) who had got physically stuck. (She had crawled down a narrowing passage with her knee in front of her hip). I find that most ?artificial caves? don?t do a lot to promote caving in a good light (no pun intended!)

Ian P said:

A few years ago on a Scout camp the fire brigade had to be called to extract a youngster from a ?cave bus? (a bus full of small passages and tunnels) who had got physically stuck. (She had crawled down a narrowing passage with her knee in front of her hip). I find that most ?artificial caves? don?t do a lot to promote caving in a good light (no pun intended!)

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Didn't JRat get stuck in an artificial cave at some do in the States?

Pitlamp said:

This is all beginning to sound like health and safety gone mad. Aren't caves supposed to be dark?

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Indeed they are. But many/most have Rn222 levels which make them unusable for professional purposes and the trickle down effect of that is the end of caving clubs and hierarchies, given enough time ('cos that's how most people get into it in the first place). Ergo "fake caves" = future of caving. If there is sufficient illumination within them to dispense with personal lights that makes it more viable and less faffy. Anything, and I mean anything, which encourages people to exercise and experience confined spaces is better than caving evaporating because of legislative diktat.

I agree that giving people (kids) the opportunity to exercise in a confined space (artificial cave) is a good thing, but to suggest that this is the future of caving because legislation on Radon exposure is going to kill real caving is pretty far fetched and I have to hope that you are taking the piss.

Cap'n Chris said:

Pitlamp said:

This is all beginning to sound like health and safety gone mad. Aren't caves supposed to be dark?

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Indeed they are. But many/most have Rn222 levels which make them unusable for professional purposes and the trickle down effect of that is the end of caving clubs and hierarchies, given enough time ('cos that's how most people get into it in the first place). Ergo "fake caves" = future of caving. If there is sufficient illumination within them to dispense with personal lights that makes it more viable and less faffy. Anything, and I mean anything, which encourages people to exercise and experience confined spaces is better than caving evaporating because of legislative diktat.

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Suggesting that people only cave professionally...

not intending to derail the thread, but what a mad statement.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. CV19 has pretty nearly extinguished outdoor pursuits centres across the nation and it will be interesting to see what that equates to in terms of caving effects over the next 3-5 years. Professional caving (outdoor pursuits) is in the region of 30,000-100,000 person trips per year so is at least an order of magnitude more than club caving therefore it shouldn't be derided as irrelevant. For the under 18s demographic it is unuargably the most relevant caving portal. If it is jeopardised or gets put out to grass then it will definitely knock on to structured adult caving organisations. Rn222 could easily kill off caving. You need to do some homework.

Cap'n Chris said:

Perhaps. Perhaps not. CV19 has pretty nearly extinguished outdoor pursuits centres across the nation and it will be interesting to see what that equates to in terms of caving effects over the next 3-5 years. Professional caving (outdoor pursuits) is in the region of 30,000-100,000 person trips per year so is at least an order of magnitude more than club caving therefore it shouldn't be derided as irrelevant. For the under 18s demographic it is unuargably the most relevant caving portal. If it is jeopardised or gets put out to grass then it will definitely knock on to structured adult caving organisations. Rn222 could easily kill off caving. You need to do some homework.

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I'm not saying that's a small number by any stretch, but do I think that commercial caving is the number 1 introducer into regular caving? no (do I have stats to back this up, equally no, in fairness).

This is not necessarily the fault of commercial cavers, as it stands, there isn't really a clear route into recreational club caving if you've been taken caving by someone commercially.

There are plans afoot to help clubs navigate this, on top of the support already available through the safeguarding section of the BCA website, as they'll undoubtedly be key in the continuance of the sport (for whatever reason, radon/covid/anything else).

Knew I'd de-rail the thread (whoops), but if there are any clubs that are wondering what they can do to help get young people into caving and are concerned about safeguarding issues, I urge you to get in contact with me either on here, or at youth@british-caving.org.uk

JoshW said:

...do I think that commercial caving is the number 1 introducer into regular caving? no (do I have stats to back this up, equally no, in fairness).

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It is. Evidence supports it.

Cap'n Chris said:

JoshW said:

...do I think that commercial caving is the number 1 introducer into regular caving? no (do I have stats to back this up, equally no, in fairness).

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It is. Evidence supports it.

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Would be great to see it, if you can point it in my direction that would be ace, always happy to be proven wrong.

To clarify on my later points in that comment about no clear route into regular caving, that was me drifting into talking about under 18s!

Professional caving (outdoor pursuits) is in the region of 30,000-100,000 person trips per year so is at least an order of magnitude more than club caving.

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Really? There seems to be some agreement that the number of cavers in Britain is in the region of 10 000 to 15 000. So if these (club?) cavers only go caving once a month (forgetting lockdown, trying to write in terms of ?normal? times; and writing as an ?old git? even I tend to go would go caving more often than that) then that?s at least 120 000 person-trips per year. My understanding of ?order of magnitude? is 10x (or 1/10) . . . ??