Chest Ascender without branding.

D

Disgusted from Cornwall.

New member
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chest-Ascender-Rock-Climbing-Sports-Rope-Access-Grab-Rescue-Gear-Equipment/253383293947?hash=item3afed23bfb:g:mesAAOSwY7taZZrY

It looks like Camp get their gear made in China and the factory have decided to sell the item without the branding (at 2/5 of the price).

I have just looked at my rather worn chest ascender (Camp turbochest) and I reckon if it's not out of the same tooling, it's a very very good copy.
 
Peregrina

Peregrina

Member
Disgusted from Cornwall. said:
I reckon if it's not out of the same tooling, it's a very very good copy.
Click to expand...

Without the testing, quality assurance and accountability of a genuine product.
 
Mark Wright

Mark Wright

Active member
I remember the dodgy Chinese knocks offs of the Petzl Croll ascender (and other items) a few years ago. It was very difficult to tell the difference between the genuine article and the knock off, even by people who were very familiar with the real thing.

Testing showed them to be lethal. You will probably get away with it with, e.g. a foot ascender but not a safety critical chest ascender.

The thing that really distinguished the real thing from the knock off was the price.

In this case, ?19.37 for a chest ascender should be a warning.

Mark
 
droid

droid

Active member
If it seems too good to be true, that's probably because it is.

I ride a motorbike (when I'm not violently assaulting Skodas) and safety-critical stuff like brake pads is always a known make.
 
royfellows

royfellows

Well-known member
I am tempted to run a poll, something along the lines of.

Which of these would you definitely not use:

1/ A non branded Chinese chest ascender.

2/ A home made rack

3/ A 'rope cutter' model Croll
 
PeteHall

PeteHall

Moderator
royfellows said:
I am tempted to run a poll, something along the lines of.

Which of these would you definitely not use:

1/ A non branded Chinese chest ascender.

2/ A home made rack

3/ A 'rope cutter' model Croll
Click to expand...

I'm very fond of my home made rack, even if members of my club describe it as my "death rack".

I know what materials it is made of and the level of workmanship in fabrication, so I have confidence in it. I wouldn't ask anyone else to offer the same level of confidence, neither would I have the same level of confidence in someone else's home made rack if I did not know the material / workmanship.

The same goes for the unbranded ascender. Without knowing the materials / workmanship, I would not trust it.
 
Cave_Troll

Cave_Troll

Active member
It may not be that Camp's factory in China are overproducing and selling.

I'm told the Petzl Chinese versions were complete rip offs. Petzl went on record as saying they didn't make any of those in China
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
I've had a close look at the photos and compared to my Turbochest. The Chinese one is definately not made with the same tooling as my Turbochest. It's a very close copy but there are some differences. The most obvious difference is the shape of the carabiner holes. Also, on the original the frame is proud of the large diameter of the rollers. There is a small indent on the top of the cam of the Chinese one that is not on the original. The slots in the screws on the Chinese one are wider than the original.

The raggy edges on the Chinese one are probably because it is made from aluminium which is more malleable than that used by European manufacturers. The high quality 'aircraft grade' aluminium alloy used to make good quality gear is of higher tensile strength which creates a cleaner edge when it's cropped. Those more raggy edges are a common feature of the cheap Chinese gear.
 
Mark Wright

Mark Wright

Active member
Also, the Turbochest is marked as conforming to EN567 and EN12841B. The dodgy one is marked EN363, which is not a recognised standard for ascender devices.

Mark
 
NewStuff

NewStuff

New member
droid said:
If it seems too good to be true, that's probably because it is.

I ride a motorbike (when I'm not violently assaulting Skodas) and safety-critical stuff like brake pads is always a known make.
Click to expand...

This. We don't mess around with cheap/crap tyres, pads, discs etc.

I'm properly cheap, but even I can't justify buying this.
 
D

Disgusted from Cornwall.

New member
Incidentally, following my getting my turbochest in to compare, I realised it was a bit corroded and worn and bought another from Tony at Starless.

My problem is that whilst I can stomach ?60. I cannot stomach wasting ?20 and then having to spend the ?60. It's a principle thing. I'd be interested in a like for like comparison. (Like I am able/did with the green pantin/chinese rip off foot ascender)

 
royfellows

royfellows

Well-known member
Simon Wilson said:
The raggy edges on the Chinese one are probably because it is made from aluminium which is more malleable than that used by European manufacturers. The high quality 'aircraft grade' aluminium alloy used to make good quality gear is of higher tensile strength which creates a cleaner edge when it's cropped. Those more raggy edges are a common feature of the cheap Chinese gear.
Click to expand...

I think Simon identifies a major issue here. The "Chinese Wonder metal" is die cast aluminium which can vary by a huge amount in terms of quality dependant what the aluminium is alloyed with.
Aircraft grade is alloyed with a small amount of copper but is more difficult to die cast than aluminium alloyed with zinc. Add enough zinc and you end up with a "Mickey Metal" as we used to say years ago.

Typical property of the latter is difficulty in machining, so "raggy edges" could be telling a story

More info here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy

As far as my three options are concerned in my previous posting, my personal choice would be none of them.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
That Chinese jammer isn't die cast; it's made from formed sheet.

Jumars are die cast using an aluminium alloy. My first SRT experience was with Jumars. They used to snap at the bottom regularly. People used the wrap tape around them in case they broke. I saw somebody still using one which was broken at the bottom - very scary. I got rid of mine after a few months because I didn't feel safe with them and bought Petzl stuff. I find it hard to understand why but Jumars are still made, at least I thought they were recently but I  might be wrong.

Zinc alloys for die casting are marvelous and transformed production of things such as pumps, electric motors and carburettors from around the 1920s. As with any metal you need to appreciate its limitations.

The problem with metals from China is poor quality control. A metal made in Europe or North America and stated to conform to a standard probably will conform.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
Tis a death trap.

The Ebay descriptive listing states quite categorically:

"It ... must not be used as a safety attachment. It is not intended for hauling or securing of bodies."

So it's not safe to use with bodies AND YET it also states:

"Max. Body Load: Approx. 120KG"
"Suitable for mountaineering, rock climbing, fire and rescue, engineering protection, rappelling, downhill"

Judging by the accompanying items that people are also buying in combination with this piece of gear it is quite clear that it is being used as PPE in real situations. Corporate manslaughter, anyone?
 
droid

droid

Active member
Simon's hit the nail on the head with regard to both cast ascenders and Chinese quality control.

I remember a mate junking a Jumar by the simple expedient of dropping it onto a hard surface. And they weren't cheap....
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
droid said:
Simon's hit the nail on the head with regard to both cast ascenders and Chinese quality control.

I remember a mate junking a Jumar by the simple expedient of dropping it onto a hard surface. And they weren't cheap....
Click to expand...

To be fair cavers in the UK only used Jumars mainly during a short period when they were more easily available than Petzl ascenders. And Jumars were the standard ascender for fixed ropes in mountaineering for quite a long time because they did have advantages. The main advantage being that they are easy to use with one hand even wearing mitts.
 
D

Disgusted from Cornwall.

New member
Time to test one (someone else can do that).

I wonder if Camp are made in china and they round the edges of the holes before forming/stamping it and the chinese ones just go in as they are, or with a lesser treatment.

It seems unusual that looking at the screws/fittings/holes, they appear to be an exact match to the camp item.

I suspect they are made in the same factory.

However, the reason I bought another Camp was that I was convinced the Al-Nasr chinese foot ascender was identical to the gold petzl right foot big one (I think it was gold...the MK2) I picked one up for ?10 inc postage and immediately found the 1 stage spring terrible. All it would take is some sort of minor cock up on the chinese-camp-rollery-one to wreck it.

The turbochest is one of the best things I own. Now I have sourced an old "green" pantin, I am going to be back in business!!!!
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Look at the shape of the holes and the forming off the indent. Definitely from different press tools.

s-_ripoff_back-horz.jpg


Look at the rivets and the forming of the body around them.

s-_ripoff_back2-horz.jpg
 
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