Simon Wilson
New member
Fulk said:
Were they cheap?
Chest Ascender without branding.
- Thread starter Disgusted from Cornwall.
- Start date
Were they cheap?
Simon Wilson
New member
I think most of the well established companies will get things made in China but that they go to great effort to hide that fact.
The Kong Cam Clean and the DMM Anthron AC30 chest ascenders both look almost identical to the Chinese ascenders on EBay. I tried to look at Chinese carabiners on EBay to see if any look almost identical to European 'branded' carabiners but it is difficult because there is such a large number of carabiners on EBay.
I think the larger the company the greater effort they take to hide that they get stuff made in China. I strongly suspect that Petzl get parts made in China and assemble them in France.
The Kong Cam Clean and the DMM Anthron AC30 chest ascenders both look almost identical to the Chinese ascenders on EBay. I tried to look at Chinese carabiners on EBay to see if any look almost identical to European 'branded' carabiners but it is difficult because there is such a large number of carabiners on EBay.
I think the larger the company the greater effort they take to hide that they get stuff made in China. I strongly suspect that Petzl get parts made in China and assemble them in France.
They definitely don't worry about copyright (also see ascenders at bottom of page):
https://unionsource1.en.made-in-china.com/product/rBemFIzcXYUS/China-Atc-Rescue-Device-for-Rope-Descender-Slow-Rappelling-Rock-Climbing-Belay.html
Similar discussion on where harnesses are made:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112528531/where-is-camp-warden-harness-made-china
Mike
https://unionsource1.en.made-in-china.com/product/rBemFIzcXYUS/China-Atc-Rescue-Device-for-Rope-Descender-Slow-Rappelling-Rock-Climbing-Belay.html
Similar discussion on where harnesses are made:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112528531/where-is-camp-warden-harness-made-china
Mike
Cave_Troll
Active member
Just because something looks "almost identical" does not mean that they're made in china and the Chinese are selling over runs.
There are enough subtle differences in this Camp ascended and the previously discussed Petzl kit that it seems to me much more likely that they're just plain copies
There are enough subtle differences in this Camp ascended and the previously discussed Petzl kit that it seems to me much more likely that they're just plain copies
Petzl acknowledge that some of their stuff is made in China (& Malaysia; although it doesn't say what):
https://www.petzl.com/company/sustainable-development/supplier-relationships?language=en
Black Diamond manufacture hardwear there:
http://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-produts-in-the-us-and-china-explained/
Mike
https://www.petzl.com/company/sustainable-development/supplier-relationships?language=en
Black Diamond manufacture hardwear there:
http://blog.weighmyrack.com/black-diamond-manufacturing-produts-in-the-us-and-china-explained/
Mike
Simon Wilson
New member
Regarding copyright, I don't think copyright comes into it; you couldn't copyright a lump of metal with two slots in it as a belay device because there have been hundreds of variations on that theme over decades. The TLA ATC has been used by quite a few companies. Also, I think using the words climbing technology quick-up in the description of the ascender probably won't infringe any laws as long as they are just using the words and not trying to pass it off as a product made by the company called Climbing Technology. I think it is sufficiently different to a CT Quick-up for them to say it isn't a copy. I have no idea how they would go on in court if it came to that but it would never come to that.
Thanks for the link to the discussion about gear made in China and other countries. It is an interesting read with a good discussion of some of the issues.
The discussion is mainly about harnesses which apparently are almost all made in the Far East including Petzl.
Thanks for the link to the discussion about gear made in China and other countries. It is an interesting read with a good discussion of some of the issues.
The discussion is mainly about harnesses which apparently are almost all made in the Far East including Petzl.
Simon Wilson
New member
Cave_Troll said:
Isn't that what I said? That is what I meant to say so maybe I didn't make the point well enough.
The ascender at the top of the thread is a close copy and intended to look like a close copy. It is not made with the same tooling and does not claim to be made by Camp.
It's a close copy; it is not a 'counterfeit'.
Simon Wilson
New member
That's interesting. Lego are a big enough company to be able to pay to fight a case in the Chinese courts and they are protecting a considerable market in China. The climbing/caving gear companies we are talking about are not in the same league.
Mark Wright
Active member
I've just been checking through the Commodity Codes and Country of Origin information on Petzl products that I have on record.
All Petzl harnesses are manufactured in Romania.
The new Petzl MGO (Scaffhook) connectors, Oxan, Vulcan and Djinn steel carabiners and the Rescucender are made in Taiwan.
The small sized MGO's used to be manufactured by CT in Italy and I think the large ones still are. I only get the Commodity Code and Origin information on the invoice so I can't speak for every Petzl product.
Petzl ropes are now all manufactured by Teufelberger in Austria.
Pixa head lamps are made in Malaysia.
Omni Triact connectors are currently made in Italy, I think by CT.
According to my records, all the other metal equipment that people on this forum are likely to use, i.e. Stop, Simple, Croll, Basic, Handled and Pantin Ascenders and standard alloy carabiners are all made in France.
Mark
All Petzl harnesses are manufactured in Romania.
The new Petzl MGO (Scaffhook) connectors, Oxan, Vulcan and Djinn steel carabiners and the Rescucender are made in Taiwan.
The small sized MGO's used to be manufactured by CT in Italy and I think the large ones still are. I only get the Commodity Code and Origin information on the invoice so I can't speak for every Petzl product.
Petzl ropes are now all manufactured by Teufelberger in Austria.
Pixa head lamps are made in Malaysia.
Omni Triact connectors are currently made in Italy, I think by CT.
According to my records, all the other metal equipment that people on this forum are likely to use, i.e. Stop, Simple, Croll, Basic, Handled and Pantin Ascenders and standard alloy carabiners are all made in France.
Mark
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Mark Wright said:
I thought DMM made some of the Petzl aluminium gear (some karabiners possibly including the Freino, some of the belay devices e.g. the Reverso)? Although obviously Wales is better than France
Mark Wright
Active member
DMM certainly used to make the Freino and the belay devices you mention but I don't have the current information for those.
Mark
Mark
Some chinese companies listed themselves as making Petzl kit (no suggestion it is made for Petzl & it does include car headlights!):
https://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Aluminum_Petzl_Distributors.html
This guy seems to have done a lot of research:
http://www.scandinavian-hiking.com/2011/10/made-in-wherever-ethics-of-outsourcing.html
Mike
https://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/Aluminum_Petzl_Distributors.html
This guy seems to have done a lot of research:
http://www.scandinavian-hiking.com/2011/10/made-in-wherever-ethics-of-outsourcing.html
Mike
Simon Wilson
New member
That guy at Scandinavian Hiking seems to take this seriously but I think it will be extremely difficult for him to find out where things are really made.
The Country of Origin is something that exporters have to declare for customs purposes and it is "the country where the last substantial, economically justified working or processing is carried out." https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/handbook_en.pdf
The country where a product is perceived to be made is extremely important for marketing. Naturally Petzl will want people to think that their products are made in France and will go to great lengths to give that impression.
How much working or processing would Petzl need to do to a product to allow it to declare France as the Country of Origin? Putting it through an inspection process, packaging it with an instruction booklet and labelling it? - possibly. Assembling a collection of parts certainly would qualify according to the guidlines.
The high cost processes involved in making an ascender such as the die casting of the cam, the plastic moulding of the trigger and the stamping, forming and finishing of the body can all be done for a fraction of the cost in a developing country.
The video below shows the Petzl factory in France. It shows the stamping of carabiners from aluminium rod; it shows the assembly of the parts of the Grigri and it shows lots of inspection and packaging. It does not show any evidence of the forming of sheet metal, plastic moulding, die casting, vibratory finishing or anodising. Maybe all those dirty, noisy, expensive processes are done at other plants in France... maybe... Petzl made the video and called the video "Where are Petzl products made?". Obviously they want to convince us that their products are made in France; so why omit to show us the major parts of the processes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKaVr-hn-PA
The Country of Origin is something that exporters have to declare for customs purposes and it is "the country where the last substantial, economically justified working or processing is carried out." https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/handbook_en.pdf
The country where a product is perceived to be made is extremely important for marketing. Naturally Petzl will want people to think that their products are made in France and will go to great lengths to give that impression.
How much working or processing would Petzl need to do to a product to allow it to declare France as the Country of Origin? Putting it through an inspection process, packaging it with an instruction booklet and labelling it? - possibly. Assembling a collection of parts certainly would qualify according to the guidlines.
The high cost processes involved in making an ascender such as the die casting of the cam, the plastic moulding of the trigger and the stamping, forming and finishing of the body can all be done for a fraction of the cost in a developing country.
The video below shows the Petzl factory in France. It shows the stamping of carabiners from aluminium rod; it shows the assembly of the parts of the Grigri and it shows lots of inspection and packaging. It does not show any evidence of the forming of sheet metal, plastic moulding, die casting, vibratory finishing or anodising. Maybe all those dirty, noisy, expensive processes are done at other plants in France... maybe... Petzl made the video and called the video "Where are Petzl products made?". Obviously they want to convince us that their products are made in France; so why omit to show us the major parts of the processes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKaVr-hn-PA
Cave_Troll
Active member
why does it matter where petzl make some of their components when
1) we already see that the "fake" components are not the same as the ones petzl use
2) we know that it is possible to make quality products in china
1) we already see that the "fake" components are not the same as the ones petzl use
2) we know that it is possible to make quality products in china
Disgusted from Cornwall.
New member
As I've said before, I have seen knock off foot ascenders (different spring) and under careful scrutiny, it appears the roller-chest ascender is different.
When I was in Guangzhou a few years ago (during the big petzl products that we like era) I saw a shunt, stop, basic, croll and handled ascender (can't spell ascension properly) and everything was "right" including the "danger reading" logo to everything else. The injection moulding parts of the basic (key component) were identical and had the nipple in the same place. When I saw them, it was a case of "these are the same, where is the branding" compared to "hmmm, not sure, they are similar, but hmmm"
There are quite a few "very similar" articles these days and rather than ponder it, it might be an idea for that Storrick chap to provide his opinion.
When I was in Guangzhou a few years ago (during the big petzl products that we like era) I saw a shunt, stop, basic, croll and handled ascender (can't spell ascension properly) and everything was "right" including the "danger reading" logo to everything else. The injection moulding parts of the basic (key component) were identical and had the nipple in the same place. When I saw them, it was a case of "these are the same, where is the branding" compared to "hmmm, not sure, they are similar, but hmmm"
There are quite a few "very similar" articles these days and rather than ponder it, it might be an idea for that Storrick chap to provide his opinion.