Author Topic: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info  (Read 655 times)

Offline JAA

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Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« on: July 09, 2021, 09:27:38 am »
Morning,
Does anyone know if a Topo survey exists for Sleets Gill?

Alternatively during flood conditions when the main cave is filled, does anyone have any idea of the distance from the water surface at the entrance to reach a point which would create airspace throughout the main passage. Eg, if a pump was sited 50m down the scree slope into the cave would draining to that level be sufficient to produce a useable airspace as far as the ramp?

I don’t suppose whilst I’m asking anyone has ever calculated how much water the cave contains when it’s resurging from the entrance?

Random questions for which there is a theoretical reason at least, thanks for anyone help  :)


Offline andrewmc

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2021, 09:42:35 am »
http://cavemaps.org/surveys/ulsa/full/ULSA%20J89%20Sleets%20Gill%20Cave.png

has an elevation in it (albeit a small one, and I don't trust the passage sizes in old surveys that much).

From
http://cavemaps.org/cavePages/Lower%20Littondale__Sleets%20Gill%20Cave.htm

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2021, 10:27:02 am »
g, if a pump was sited 50m down the scree slope into the cave would draining to that level be sufficient to produce a useable airspace as far as the ramp?

No - you have Hydrophobia to deal with. Any decent flow through the system makes Hydrophobia impassable.

Offline Benfool

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2021, 11:18:37 am »
Yep, what Langcliffe said!

Hydrophobia is one of the lowest parts of the cave and quickly becomes impassable in anything but dry conditions.

In order to make usable airspace all the way from the Ramp to the entrance, you'd basically have to empty the entire cave - thats a huge amount of water.

If anybody was ever stuck beyond Hydrophobia they'd basically need to wait it out until the water dropped enough naturally - that could take a while!

B

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2021, 12:58:16 pm »
And in flood you'd have to be pumping faster than this:



PLUS the water coming out the bottom of the hill :)

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2021, 01:24:31 pm »
Is that really all coming through Hydrophobia, or has something else become active in the old cave?

Offline Fulk

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2021, 01:43:19 pm »
Maybe under such conditions the water can force its way through the boulder choke at the end of the Main Passage?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2021, 01:45:52 pm »
Good point Langcliffe - 2 or three passages / sumps away to the right on the way in probably all feed in water.

I remember on the great rescue when 2 cavers got trapped in there by rising water, the water level between the resulting sumps was going up and down quite a bit. Given the "smoothing" effect on autogenic flows, it suggests a very complex relationship between the various inputs / outputs.

I'd not like to have to go in to the back end of the cave relying on pumps . . .  :o

I think Fulk makes a good point as well - from memory, don't small springs start to arise in the dry beck (partway up the hill between the road and the cave entrance) before the main entrance spills over?


Offline langcliffe

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2021, 01:57:34 pm »
I think Fulk makes a good point as well - from memory, don't small springs start to arise in the dry beck (partway up the hill between the road and the cave entrance) before the main entrance spills over?

There is no obvious evidence of water flowing strongly through the boulder choke at the end of the old cave, and I was having a close look at it 10 days ago whilst waiting for my companion to emerge from Hydrophobia.

There is a sink half-way up the entrance ramp on the left (going up), which probably accounts for the resurgence in the stream bed.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2021, 02:08:00 pm »
Thanks for the clarification Langcliffe.

Offline Trogger

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2021, 02:16:39 pm »
A lot of water resurges lower down the gill as we found out on 26 June 2007. There was a large stream lower down the hill and we hoped to see Sleets 'over the top'. Disappointed to find it just below the top, but there was a lot coming out of a rising not far below. Three pics attached (hopefully).

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2021, 02:25:00 pm »
Thanks Trogger, that's exactly what also happens at two other similar sites (i.e. autogenic systems with normally dry entrances now draining, by underflow, to more recent immature risings). Mammary Pot in the Lyth Valley (near Kendal) and Preacher's Cave (west side of Wild Boar Fell) do the same thing - with springs becoming active in their normally dry outlet streambeds, as the waters in the main caves rise towards their overspill levels from the main old passage.

Offline JAA

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2021, 02:47:28 pm »
Thanks all. It’s purely theory really but I’m curious as to whether 2 pumps which could lift a total of 14,000 litres per minute could be useful in a rescue situation.

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2021, 02:53:41 pm »
As the old supermarket ad used to say: "Every little helps".

You have an email from me by the way JAA.

Offline Fjell

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2021, 04:16:33 pm »
Can we see a pic of this big boy? That’s about 50HP per 10m of head and something like twin 8” hoses. I would struggle to get that in a Petzl Classique.

Offline paul

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2021, 04:29:50 pm »
I remember on the great rescue when 2 cavers got trapped in there by rising water, the water level between the resulting sumps was going up and down quite a bit. Given the "smoothing" effect on autogenic flows, it suggests a very complex relationship between the various inputs / outputs.

Sid Perou's film about that incident:

I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2021, 04:42:38 pm »
I was in an airspace section, dekitted, when the water suddenly started to rise with a lot of banging and glooping. Think that's the fastest I've ever kitted up.
Even Dave Morrris went quiet.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2021, 04:57:52 pm »
I was in an airspace section, dekitted, when the water suddenly started to rise with a lot of banging and glooping. Think that's the fastest I've ever kitted up.
Even Dave Morrris went quiet.

I was convinced until the last bit...  :lol:

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Sleets Gill - Rather specific request for info
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2021, 04:58:35 pm »
 :clap2:    :lol:

Good old Dave - he's a star.

 

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