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Is it right or wrong to enforce Covid-19 vaccinations on care home workers?

Right to enforce vaccination
Wrong to enforce vaccination
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Author Topic: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?  (Read 2193 times)

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2021, 07:59:21 am »
I think one has to seriously consider whether people who spread lies and misinformation on something as serious as vaccination in the midst of a pandemic should be allowed to do so.

Was it not the case that the original WHO definition of Pandemic didn't fit the CV-19 agenda so they re-defined it so we now are in a global Pandemic. I vaguely recall that even now we aren't technically in one, by correct definition(s).
By any definition you care to pull up, the covid 19 outbreak is a pandemic and naming it anything else won't diminish the 4.5 million or so who've been killed by it.
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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2021, 08:51:38 am »
Just a comment on my posting.
What I was doing was expressing an opinion under my right of free speech.

So doesn't this stuff all go round and round in circles and cut every way?
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Offline Speleofish

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2021, 08:58:04 am »
Two comments on my posts. First, AR has a point - I was making a poor argument rather badly. What I was trying to say was that flu kills 25-30,000 people predictably every year, frequently stresses the NHS (due to a combination of increased patient numbers and staff sickness) and will probably continue to do so, there is an argument for mandatory vaccination of all health staff. However, we've never gone there.

Second, looking at the voting, maybe my cynicism about the government enforcing vaccination of care staff is justified...

Offline Cosmo Smallpiece

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2021, 10:24:23 am »
I would be surprised if many care home staff wanted to decline the vaccine. A significant number fall into the vulnerable bracket themselves due to age or obesity. The rest have been at the sharp end of this pandemic and witnessed the virus cut through the residents. They've the best interests of the residents at heart and I can't imagine why they would want to do anything to put their lives and health in danger. One of my concerns when I visit my elderly Mum there is the risk of bringing covid inside there to her and others. So yes I test properly, wash properly, mask up etc....

I wonder if care staff leaving employment on mandatory vaccination is likely? So they're going to apply for another job as what? 1) Avoiding another similar role where mandatory vaccination is likely. 2) A job where their future employer will see them as someone who declines to follow the safety guidelines. 3)...and someone who is likely not to follow medical advice for themselves/others. 4) Someone likely to follow extremist/conspiracy sites on the web. 5) Someone willing to dump their chosen vocation on a whim. Therefore probably a trouble-maker?

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2021, 10:43:44 am »
Many of us have to wear PPE or follow strict health and safety procedures to protect others at work. I don't see vaccination as fundamentally any different to this.

There are very few people who have a genuine reason not to get vaccinated. Most of the anti vax stuff I hear is from people who follow nut job conspiracy theories and in many cases they hate reasonable precautions like masks which makes them even more likely to transmit covid and other diseases.

I would expect care workers to take every precaution to protect the clients they are working with. If they are not prepared to do this then they are in the wrong job.

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2021, 01:41:20 pm »
Warning: I have sourced all my claims/stats and not once referenced any leading infectious disease experts such as Nina Minaj or David Ike so feel free to ignore my distorted false news

The total population of Scotland is 5,446,000
(source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/timeseries/scpop/pop)

as at 07:20 17/09/2021 in Scotland 4,150,157 people have received their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccination and 3,798,938 have received their second dose
(source: https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/)

so 3798938/5446000 so ~70% of the population are double vaccinated (simplification as this ignoring single vaccinated people and ignoring fact that some have only just received 2nd vaccine so not got full benefit yet, hopefully the two even out?)
So ~70% of the population is double vaccinated in Scotland

However the Army is having to assist ambulance service in Scotland (source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58588112) as there is a shortage of ambulances on the road because they are waiting for hours to unload patients at hospitals because in turn the hospitals are struggling to accept patients.

The reason hospitals are struggling is slightly contested: staff shortages due to Covid and additional Covid admissions is widely blamed (although previous backlogs and neglected conditions are also blamed)

What I am tediously leading to with all this -- > is if at ~70% double vaccinated Scotland's health service is visibly struggling, can we afford to not press on with vaccination measures such as requiring care home workers to be vaccinated?  While the vaccine is certainly no ultra effective silver-bullet, data strongly suggests it helps reduce the problem by reducing case level by 2/3 (Source: "People who were unvaccinated had a three-fold higher prevalence than those who had received both doses" https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/)

One more straw right now might break the camel's back, Scotland especially. Can we afford not to mandate vaccination is that sector?

While I am a libertarian and against covid passports etc, I believe it is a public interest matter that all health professionals, care home workers etc are required to be vaccinated as their work typically involves a lot of contact with covid-vulnerable people. I'm baffled that this is even being debated/contested
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Offline Fulk

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2021, 02:29:13 pm »
I was listening to the 1 o’clock news programme on R-4 the other day (yesterday, I think) and they ran an item on vaccination of care-home workers. I was astonished at how many hadn’t bothered to get themselves jabbed (their choice, apparently).

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2021, 02:43:56 pm »
I have to a wear a shitload of heavy PPE for rope-access work, and have to manage public access if there's any chance our work could harm them too. We even have to use an ASAP on a second rope when we're abseiling! Tchoh. But I try not to complain too much as they're - erm - paying me to do it, and I'd hate to get injured or killed, or injure or kill someone else, for not taking the correct and somewhat obvious precautions in a potentially lethal situation. Now obviously I can take my PPE off when I go home, whereas a vaccine is in there 'forever' - or a year, depending on your optimism levels. But there's enough work been done on side-effects and risks now that most healthy people can assume that they will be fine. We do a risk assessment before every job, and it's not hard to do a mental one for aspects of your life in the same way. Actually writing one down could be a good idea!

I just found out that my best friend, who was unvaccinated until now for suspected health risks has just got vaccinated, and I'm rather pleased about that, as I was getting pretty stressed about it - hopefully all will be fine.

Offline PeteHall

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2021, 09:20:50 pm »
What I am tediously leading to with all this -- > is if at ~70% double vaccinated Scotland's health service is visibly struggling, can we afford to not press on with vaccination measures such as requiring care home workers to be vaccinated? 

What percentage of the Scottish population us under 16? Your 70% vaccinated is going to be a good big higher for the adult population.

Having asked Google, with no proper citation. Apparently, 17% are under 16, so assuming the vast majority of the 70% double vaccinated are over 16, that would equate to roughly 85% of the adult population double jabbed. Or 92% who have had at least one jab.

So if basically everyone is vaccinated already, why the hell force it on those few who, for whatever reason, aren't happy taking it?

What actual difference will it make, other than driving people out of their jobs and adding fuel to the fire of the conspiracy theorists?

If the system can't cope with 92% vaccinated, will knocking that up to 93% really fix the problem?

Offline droid

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2021, 01:38:05 am »
The 'problem' isn't one of the general public. but a very specific one.

And it's not forced. It's a choice.
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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2021, 07:02:35 am »
Putting aside actually catching COVID for the moment. I found out that a good mate had what we now know is a heart attack. He didn't get seen for quite some time as there were no beds. None (Scotland). Despite presenting lots of classical signs of one. He's lucky, he lived and eventually got treatment, but they think he's likely to have permanent damage from the significant delay in treatment. He's still not had more than the basics because there are no beds or spaces, or doctors or nurses. There is no capacity.

The issue is that people who would otherwise go on to lead perfectly healthy lives are dying or sustaining otherwise avoidable lifelong issues, not because they have a COVID infection, but because COVID is clogging up our hospitals, and a significant number op those are un-vaccinated by choice. I don't know a single person that can't have a vaccine on medical grounds that doesn't want it.

I now at a point that I get decidedly nasty with someone whose surprisingly common attitude is "I don't like the idea of it, I'm not responsible for other people, my choice is more important". At this point people know it's a public health thing, it's not being a **** to others, it's not being selfish. And yet here we are. Time to take off the gloves and stop being nice. If you choose to not have it, I have an issue with you.

Yes I'm aware this will get moderated. But the time for being polite is long past.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 09:32:39 am by paul, Reason: Redacted swearing »
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Offline mikem

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2021, 09:15:26 am »
The stats seem to show that a higher percentage of NHS employees are vaccinated than the general public anyway.

Online pwhole

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2021, 10:02:09 am »
Quote
The issue is that people who would otherwise go on to lead perfectly healthy lives are dying or sustaining otherwise avoidable lifelong issues, not because they have a COVID infection, but because COVID is clogging up our hospitals, and a significant number op those are un-vaccinated by choice.

Exactly - and so my nearly-fatal burst appendix in Liverpool on June 3rd, which required an emergency operation (and an enforced stay in the A&E ward for a week) may not have been possible now, and I could have died on a trolley instead. I know most of you don't know me, but the people who do would have been complaining quite a lot (I hope) about my unnecessary death by now. Hopefully folks wouldn't have then written "Well, life's a tough call, what you gonna do?" and then go caving.

Online paul

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2021, 10:08:02 am »
Interestingly, the question of whether to accept compulsory vaccination (although not for Covid19 obviously) is not a new topic.

I came across this article while researching and unrelated matter:

Quote
Compulsory Vaccination
Sir, — From time to time some champion of the party which is opposed to vaccination comes forward to air his views in the public Press, but these periodical sallies seldom lead to any discussion, as the inherent weakness of their position renders a reply superfluous. When, however, a gentleman of Colonel Wintle's position makes an attack upon what is commonly considered by those most competent to judge to be one of the greatest victories ever won by science over disease, it is high time that some voice should be raised upon the other side. Hobbies and fads are harmless things as a rule, but when a hobby takes the form of encouraging ignorant people to neglect sanitary precautions and to live in a fool's paradise until bitter experience teaches them their mistake, it becomes a positive danger to the community at large. The interests at stake are so vital that an enormous responsibility rests with the men whose notion of progress is to revert to the condition of things which existed in the dark ages before the dawn of medical science.

[more text not shown for brevity]

In conclusion I would say that the subject is of such importance, ancestors call and our present immunity from small pox so striking, that it would take a very strong case to justify a change. As long as that case is so weak as to need the argument of morality to enforce it I think that the Vaccination Acts are in no great danger of being repealed.

It was Yours faithfully,

A. CONAN DOYLE, M.D., C.M.

Bush Villa, July 14th, 1887

Compulsory Vaccination is a letter written by Arthur Conan Doyle first published in The Evening Mail (Portsmouth) on 15 july 1887.

See https://www.arthur-conan-doyle.com/index.php?title=Compulsory_Vaccination_-_The_Evening_Mail
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2021, 11:04:11 am »
The stats seem to show that a higher percentage of NHS employees are vaccinated than the general public anyway.

A LOT higher I will ask my wife to get the figures from her trust
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Offline The Old Ruminator

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2021, 11:26:28 am »
My son in Western Australia tells me that its now Job or Jab in all W. A. hospitals by law now. Lets just say that if I was in an old folks home ( pending ) I would want the same here.

Offline Cosmo Smallpiece

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2021, 12:41:18 pm »

So if basically everyone is vaccinated already, why the hell force it on those few who, for whatever reason, aren't happy taking it?


At the height of the pandemic my mother was not going out of her care home, though vaccinated. Visitors were not allowed in to visit, regardless of their vaccination status. Returnees from hospital were kept in isolation and there were times when Mum was not allowed even out of her room though not infected.

The weak link in this system is the care staff who needed to be diligent in their hygiene and procedures to prevent the spread of covid to folks like my Mum.

Unfortunately care staff not taking the vaccine are a threat to the vulnerable patients.

When I see arguments in favour of the "rights" of care staff to choose for themselves whether they wish to endanger the folks they "care" for, I wonder if similar rights are considered for folks like my Mum who end up imprisoned when the virus slips  through?

Offline mikem

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2021, 08:07:41 pm »
It does depend if you are likely to be breathing in someone else's face, that is when it is likely to be transferred... (Numbers for care home & NHS staff include office workers)

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2021, 12:13:22 am »
I got the Sheffield to Leeds local stopping train this lunchtime to go see some friends in the Dearne Valley - whoa, that was scary. It started in Sheffield, so was empty, but every window was closed, so I opened as many as I could near me without it becoming embarrassing. But the train ended up pretty damn full by the time it left, and I would guess 10% of us had masks on - if I hadn't opened those windows, there would have been none open. I asked the conductor when he checked my ticket if he'd mind opening a couple more window on his way down, but he didn't.

The atmosphere was very weird, as most people not wearing masks seemed a tad uncomfortable about it - possibly as the other 10% were all glaring at them, probably making them feel a bit hot. The guy opposite me had his feet on my seat, played a child's computer game on his phone with headphones on, and kept pulling his shirt up over his mouth in a half-hearted way every time he needed to cough, which was frequently. It was like watching a rabbit eat lettuce it was so retarded and selfish - I know this as I did just that when I got to my friends' house, but the rabbit was more considerate with its feet, and didn't cough so much.

The conductor at one point retreated to his little cabin at the back of the train, had a massive coughing fit, and then came back out again with his mask back on. By the time I got off, I was suffering from oxygen deprivation I was breathing so shallowly. I definitely wear a mask to protect myself from the public on public transport, not the other way around as is often claimed. There is no wonder that the numbers won't go down - there are just too many sheeple out there.

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2021, 12:31:57 am »
Kind of agree with you on public transport.  Had a bit of a car crash last year and had to go to physio in Brighton. The journeys were most unpleasant - mainly because Brighton is a total dump and full of smack heads, and the nearer you get there there more they use the trains, buses etc.  Really unpleasant, and you have to be on your guard.  Of course covid isn't on their list to worry about.
I'm avoiding any form of public transport as much as I can as I don't trust it.
I don't trust 'face coverings' either as most are completely useless and offer no protection other than making you feel good.

Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2021, 08:06:49 am »
Kind of agree with you on public transport.  Had a bit of a car crash last year and had to go to physio in Brighton. The journeys were most unpleasant - mainly because Brighton is a total dump and full of smack heads, and the nearer you get there there more they use the trains, buses etc.  Really unpleasant, and you have to be on your guard.  Of course covid isn't on their list to worry about.
I'm avoiding any form of public transport as much as I can as I don't trust it.
I don't trust 'face coverings' either as most are completely useless and offer no protection other than making you feel good.

I really cant remember the last time I went on public transport expect for a plane .   :-\
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Offline mikem

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #71 on: September 20, 2021, 08:34:46 am »
Masks are proven to stop you breathing out large amounts of virus straight into other people's faces, but don't prevent you breathing in whatever others are adding to the atmosphere (unless they are sealed and filtered)

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #72 on: September 20, 2021, 09:30:37 am »
Picking up on some general precaution points in the above comments - 1200 scientists wrote to the Lancet in advance of "freedom day" stating that this was a "murderous policy of herd immunity by mass infection". How stupid was it to tell people to stop taking basic precautions on a day and how stupid have people been to follow this? From the village shop "masks preferred" to three large events I have attended recently where very few have worn masks or socially distanced. We have chaos - and a "murderous policy ----".

The "boiling frog" analogy and the use of the mainstream media to manipulate are all too obvious. We will vaccinate the old and vulnerable (but not others, not children) has turned out to be a drive to vaccinate everyone, whatever the efficacy or risks of the vaccines. I recall recently booster doses "not being required" and "being required" in the same day's news! The myth that vaccines protect fully from infection and fully from transmitting Covid has been encouraged and exploited. Having the knowledge that many people do not read or listen past a headline or even bother to seek the news first hand has been very useful in this. 

Science has said that vaccinating 12-15 year olds had "marginal benefits which had to weighed against side effects" so the government formed its own group to find a reason to vaccinate children in this age group. Now we have a nod to side effects by way of one dose (which is quite illogical but logical enough to sound convincing) a dodgy consent form for parents to sign and a threat to manipulate the Law (Gillicks Law) and use peer pressure to gain consent - all of which are obscene in my eyes. It is worth remembering a threatened epidemic (which did not happen and was never going to) in the mid-1990s and mass vaccination to counter it. This turned out to be a deal struck between the UK government and a pharmaceutical company to off-load excess stocks of vaccine (re. Hansard).

On booster doses the scientific advice is that they are not needed, the vaccine would be better employed in other parts of the world, which would limit the spread from these. In addition, giving booster doses will make it more difficult to assess the efficacy of the vaccines. Booster doses have been trailed but now we have the prospect of a trial, within a trial, within the current trial (the whole vaccination programme) as another vaccine is introduced to the mix. It is notable that AZ has quietly been withdrawn with Phizer, Moderna and Novovax substituted.

Returning to the original question, Jabs or Jobs (which is yet another "boiling frog" example) is wrong and I do not how this can be brought in without a change in Employment Law and Informed Consent practice and supporting Law. But it does not apply to NHS staff, many, many of whom have refused to be vaccinated, something we could do well to know more about. 

My comments are neither pro or anti- vaccination. I refused subscribe to conspiracy theories from the outset but when it comes to vaccination passports/ID cards with your full medical history on them and all this could mean I think we should take notice. What I would like is more honesty and more transparency. Do we have shambolic management of the pandemic, is everything being done "on the hoof" or is there a plan? What we should be told is how much money is being made and stands to be made for individuals and political party funds. We know that some members of the government and some of their advisors have vested interest in vaccination and testing - let's have the full picture - and let's have independent advice on what should be done.   

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #73 on: September 20, 2021, 10:29:28 am »
It is worth remembering a threatened epidemic (which did not happen and was never going to) in the mid-1990s and mass vaccination to counter it. This turned out to be a deal struck between the UK government and a pharmaceutical company to off-load excess stocks of vaccine (re. Hansard).


Just to clarify as I can't find any reference to a threatened epidemic in the 1990's, apart from a severe seasonal flu event (1989/90 I think), might this be the Swine Flu pandemic in 2009 and Roche's Tamiflu product?

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Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?
« Reply #74 on: September 20, 2021, 11:26:15 am »
Returning to the original question, Jabs or Jobs (which is yet another "boiling frog" example) is wrong and I do not how this can be brought in without a change in Employment Law and Informed Consent practice and supporting Law. But it does not apply to NHS staff, many, many of whom have refused to be vaccinated, something we could do well to know more about. 

My comments are neither pro or anti- vaccination. I refused subscribe to conspiracy theories from the outset but when it comes to vaccination passports/ID cards with your full medical history on them and all this could mean I think we should take notice. What I would like is more honesty and more transparency. Do we have shambolic management of the pandemic, is everything being done "on the hoof" or is there a plan? What we should be told is how much money is being made and stands to be made for individuals and political party funds. We know that some members of the government and some of their advisors have vested interest in vaccination and testing - let's have the full picture - and let's have independent advice on what should be done.
"Many, many" NHS staff "Refuse to be vaccinated"? Where did you obtain that idea from? What does it mean? Although you declare yourself neither pro or anti-vaccination, the tone of your posting suggests the latter. Why should you not be pro-vaccination?
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