Right or Wrong to Enforce CV19 Vaccinations on Care Home Workers ?

[Paul Marvin]

News Update Guys !. My wife who is a nurse has just had an email a few minutes ago that ALL NHS staff are to have the third CV19 booster vaccine and it will be the Pfizer version unless for medical reason you are unable to have that version then you will be offered the AZ version. I wonder if the NHS got a better deal on the Pfizer one 

There's evidence that the Pfizer version works well as a booster.

Was better for me I had lots of issues with the first AZ one after lots of messing about they gave me the Pfizer as a second and no problems at all

 

[Paul Marvin]

keep on voting guys a picture is developing 

 

[PeteHall]

This kind of stuff does challenge the right to free speech.

Very surprised to see that from you Roy and I hope you don't actually mean it.

Allowing the state to dictate what you can or can't say is a bloody dangerous proposition that would have far worse and far longer lasting consequences for humanity than covid ever will.

Similar in fact, to the state mandating medical procedures.

Give them an emergency power in a crisis, don't ever expect them to give if back once the crisis is over.

Freedom of choice, freedom of thought and freedom of speech are critical to a free society. Any infringement of these basic freedoms must be resisted at all costs regardless of the short-term crisis we currently see.

Anyone advocating limiting free speech, or mandating vaccination "for the greater good" should take a long hard look at themselves and ask  where this path leads to next.

Considering how little trust people seem to have in the current government, it is astounding that so many seem happy to hand over such basic freedoms!

Do you really want Boris (or Kier for that matter) deciding what you are allowed to say, or what drug you should be injected with?

If that's what you lot want, good f$#king luck to you!

 

[royfellows]

There is no absolute right to free speech as it is.

It is a criminal offence to preach hatred towards a specific group of people, ethnic, orientation, etc. Similarly racism, or advocating violence. What I am trying to say here is that you cant say whatever you like as things currently stand.

I think one has to seriously consider whether people who spread lies and misinformation on something as serious as vaccination in the midst of a pandemic should be allowed to do so. That's my view and I stand on it.

 

[cap n chris]

I think one has to seriously consider whether people who spread lies and misinformation on something as serious as vaccination in the midst of a pandemic should be allowed to do so.

Was it not the case that the original WHO definition of Pandemic didn't fit the CV-19 agenda so they re-defined it so we now are in a global Pandemic. I vaguely recall that even now we aren't technically in one, by correct definition(s).

 

[ZombieCake]

Give them an emergency power in a crisis, don't ever expect them to give if back once the crisis is over.

It's now going to be "Achtung papers, boyo!" in Wales from October.  Slippery slope....

 

[pwhole]

It is also the most incompetent British government in living memory - possibly in history. So they're unlikely to do 'Police State' any better than anything else they've attempted. Also they've de-funded the police to the extent that they can barely solve crime any more. So I doubt the police will be that keen to become the Gestapo over British citizens. They do have to live on the same streets as the rest of us, and there's a lot more of us. They could always subcontract it out to a newly-formed company run by an ex-councillor and some of his thug mates I guess.

 

[PeteHall]

And what is the next, more competent, government going to do with their newfound power?

A fundamental change to our freedom will not be limited the current government.

Malaysia, for example, still operates emergency powers (such as detention without trial and mandatory ID cards), when the communist insurgency that triggered those powers ended in 1960.

 

[mikem]

The data on covid is still massively inaccurate, as most of those being infected also aren't being tested (the only semi reliable source for comparison is still deaths). It just happens to have more data available than other viruses. & flu didn't get hold last winter because people were socially distancing / majority of the vulnerable just weren't going out.

 

[droid]

A fundamental change to our freedom will not be limited the current government.

I think that's unnecessarily pessimistic.

Coercive 'emergency measures' have in the past been rescinded when no longer needed. So to me, this argument is irrellevant. *Bugger, can't get the red line from under that last word*

 

[tony from suffolk]

I think one has to seriously consider whether people who spread lies and misinformation on something as serious as vaccination in the midst of a pandemic should be allowed to do so.

Was it not the case that the original WHO definition of Pandemic didn't fit the CV-19 agenda so they re-defined it so we now are in a global Pandemic. I vaguely recall that even now we aren't technically in one, by correct definition(s).

By any definition you care to pull up, the covid 19 outbreak is a pandemic and naming it anything else won't diminish the 4.5 million or so who've been killed by it.

 

[royfellows]

Just a comment on my posting.
What I was doing was expressing an opinion under my right of free speech.

So doesn't this stuff all go round and round in circles and cut every way?

 

[Speleofish]

Two comments on my posts. First, AR has a point - I was making a poor argument rather badly. What I was trying to say was that flu kills 25-30,000 people predictably every year, frequently stresses the NHS (due to a combination of increased patient numbers and staff sickness) and will probably continue to do so, there is an argument for mandatory vaccination of all health staff. However, we've never gone there.

Second, looking at the voting, maybe my cynicism about the government enforcing vaccination of care staff is justified...

 

[Cosmo Smallpiece]

I would be surprised if many care home staff wanted to decline the vaccine. A significant number fall into the vulnerable bracket themselves due to age or obesity. The rest have been at the sharp end of this pandemic and witnessed the virus cut through the residents. They've the best interests of the residents at heart and I can't imagine why they would want to do anything to put their lives and health in danger. One of my concerns when I visit my elderly Mum there is the risk of bringing covid inside there to her and others. So yes I test properly, wash properly, mask up etc....

I wonder if care staff leaving employment on mandatory vaccination is likely? So they're going to apply for another job as what? 1) Avoiding another similar role where mandatory vaccination is likely. 2) A job where their future employer will see them as someone who declines to follow the safety guidelines. 3)...and someone who is likely not to follow medical advice for themselves/others. 4) Someone likely to follow extremist/conspiracy sites on the web. 5) Someone willing to dump their chosen vocation on a whim. Therefore probably a trouble-maker?

 

[Fishes]

Many of us have to wear PPE or follow strict health and safety procedures to protect others at work. I don't see vaccination as fundamentally any different to this.

There are very few people who have a genuine reason not to get vaccinated. Most of the anti vax stuff I hear is from people who follow nut job conspiracy theories and in many cases they hate reasonable precautions like masks which makes them even more likely to transmit covid and other diseases.

I would expect care workers to take every precaution to protect the clients they are working with. If they are not prepared to do this then they are in the wrong job.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Warning: I have sourced all my claims/stats and not once referenced any leading infectious disease experts such as Nina Minaj or David Ike so feel free to ignore my distorted false news

The total population of Scotland is 5,446,000
(source: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/timeseries/scpop/pop)

as at 07:20 17/09/2021 in Scotland 4,150,157 people have received their first dose of a COVID-19 vaccination and 3,798,938 have received their second dose
(source: https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/)

so 3798938/5446000 so ~70% of the population are double vaccinated (simplification as this ignoring single vaccinated people and ignoring fact that some have only just received 2nd vaccine so not got full benefit yet, hopefully the two even out?)
So ~70% of the population is double vaccinated in Scotland

However the Army is having to assist ambulance service in Scotland (source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58588112) as there is a shortage of ambulances on the road because they are waiting for hours to unload patients at hospitals because in turn the hospitals are struggling to accept patients.

The reason hospitals are struggling is slightly contested: staff shortages due to Covid and additional Covid admissions is widely blamed (although previous backlogs and neglected conditions are also blamed)

What I am tediously leading to with all this -- > is if at ~70% double vaccinated Scotland's health service is visibly struggling, can we afford to not press on with vaccination measures such as requiring care home workers to be vaccinated?  While the vaccine is certainly no ultra effective silver-bullet, data strongly suggests it helps reduce the problem by reducing case level by 2/3 (Source: "People who were unvaccinated had a three-fold higher prevalence than those who had received both doses" https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/)

One more straw right now might break the camel's back, Scotland especially. Can we afford not to mandate vaccination is that sector?

While I am a libertarian and against covid passports etc, I believe it is a public interest matter that all health professionals, care home workers etc are required to be vaccinated as their work typically involves a lot of contact with covid-vulnerable people. I'm baffled that this is even being debated/contested

 

[Fulk]

I was listening to the 1 o?clock news programme on R-4 the other day (yesterday, I think) and they ran an item on vaccination of care-home workers. I was astonished at how many hadn?t bothered to get themselves jabbed (their choice, apparently).

 

[pwhole]

I have to a wear a shitload of heavy PPE for rope-access work, and have to manage public access if there's any chance our work could harm them too. We even have to use an ASAP on a second rope when we're abseiling! Tchoh. But I try not to complain too much as they're - erm - paying me to do it, and I'd hate to get injured or killed, or injure or kill someone else, for not taking the correct and somewhat obvious precautions in a potentially lethal situation. Now obviously I can take my PPE off when I go home, whereas a vaccine is in there 'forever' - or a year, depending on your optimism levels. But there's enough work been done on side-effects and risks now that most healthy people can assume that they will be fine. We do a risk assessment before every job, and it's not hard to do a mental one for aspects of your life in the same way. Actually writing one down could be a good idea!

I just found out that my best friend, who was unvaccinated until now for suspected health risks has just got vaccinated, and I'm rather pleased about that, as I was getting pretty stressed about it - hopefully all will be fine.

 

[PeteHall]

What I am tediously leading to with all this -- > is if at ~70% double vaccinated Scotland's health service is visibly struggling, can we afford to not press on with vaccination measures such as requiring care home workers to be vaccinated? 

What percentage of the Scottish population us under 16? Your 70% vaccinated is going to be a good big higher for the adult population.

Having asked Google, with no proper citation. Apparently, 17% are under 16, so assuming the vast majority of the 70% double vaccinated are over 16, that would equate to roughly 85% of the adult population double jabbed. Or 92% who have had at least one jab.

So if basically everyone is vaccinated already, why the hell force it on those few who, for whatever reason, aren't happy taking it?

What actual difference will it make, other than driving people out of their jobs and adding fuel to the fire of the conspiracy theorists?

If the system can't cope with 92% vaccinated, will knocking that up to 93% really fix the problem?

 

[droid]

The 'problem' isn't one of the general public. but a very specific one.

And it's not forced. It's a choice.