Author Topic: Vote Rostam!!!  (Read 5103 times)

Online Ian Ball

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2021, 04:42:32 pm »
Blimey! you tell them Ed  :thumbsup:


Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2021, 05:28:16 pm »
I wouldn't worry too much about Tim promoting his views, the CSCC reps are doing the same in their email networks in favour of Russell.

Out of interest, what are you referring to here Will?

Offline JoshW

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2021, 05:39:15 pm »
Right, I am pi$$ed off.  I am sick to death of the constant whining and carping and undermining of the CSCC that has been occurring.  Perhaps as CSCC Chair I should be more tactful, but all I see is an un-ending spite being unloaded onto a group of people who work their socks off to try and benefit all underground explorers in the south.  I for one am very proud of the work that CSCC Officers do, mostly without recognition or thanks.  Yes I would be the first to agree that the CSCC needs change, indeed that is why I stood as chair last year, but I am utterly dismayed by the vitriol directed at individuals just because they hold a differing view.  It is notable that the attacks continue despite real progress being made in some areas.

I am not a political animal by nature, indeed I spent most of my caving career actively trying to avoid any involvement in committees and representative bodies.  After a year or so of getting caught up in it I see I was wiser in my youth!  Frankly the behaviours shown by many in the UK caving politics scene are those most usually seen on the playground of junior schools.  The incessant back room manoeuvring, personal attacks and shear two faced sniping are something to behold.  For some democracy is only acceptable if it reflects their own agenda and they see anyone with a different viewpoint as the enemy to be eliminated.

In short we have a downright toxic system with some really nasty behaviour that sucks the life and soul out of all involved.  For me it has wrecked caving as a hobby that I have loved for over 35 years.  I have gone from being underground once or twice every week to essentially having no interest in the sport whatsoever it has been that poisonous.  It has also destroyed many other good people, including personal friends over the last few years.  No one person or group is solely responsible for this, but EVERYONE involved (including some who have posted on this thread) need to look at their actions and ask if they are part of the problem - as pointed out by a recent BCA Chair who was hounded out by this sort of behaviour.

My honest opinionis that BCA is on the cusp of collapse and unless the average British Caving politician can grow up and stop acting like a bunch of spoilt 5 year olds then it will be the worse for the sport.

It goes without saying that these are my own personal views and are not posted in my capacity as CSCC Chair.

Hi Ed, totally get your frustration here.. however, the email posted above is clearly the CSCC council representative, misrepresenting what has happened, under the guise of a CSCC roundup of the AGM proposals.

I'm not saying Linda has done this deliberately, I'm sure once she is made aware of this, she'll retract and issue a new summary for this proposal.

If however this is a deliberate misrepresentation, I know who I'd be pissed at if I was in your shoes.
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Ed W

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2021, 05:45:41 pm »
Josh, exactly what has been misrepresented?

Offline Badlad

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2021, 06:07:01 pm »
Seems to me Ed W that you haven't enjoyed reading some very valid points, mostly brought to light in a measured and respectful way I thought.  The majority of issues raised in this thread are by either current or past members of BCA council, which does give them a certain level of credibility.

If you want to look for the toxicity in British caving then the needle points firmly to the south.  I don't know which BCA chair was hounded out of the position but I do know a recent BCA Secretary, IT Group convenor, Webmaster, P&I Officer and C&A Officer who were certainly hounded out of office and, by their own resignation statements, it was long serving members of CSCC who shoulder the blame.

Certainly in my experience where efforts have been made to modernise the BCA, by following the democratic processes I should add, the main opposition to any change came from the same few members of CSCC who always argued for the status quo to remain.  The most laughable (in hindsight) was the two year opposition to the modernisation of regional funding for C&A projects.  When this eventually succeeded, having fought its way through heavy CSCC opposition, it has turned out that the biggest beneficiaries of the modernising changes have been... yes the CSCC cave access and conservation projects.  How did that opposition benefit southern cavers?

The simple fact is that many have come and gone as volunteers for BCA, trying all their best to change cave politics for the better.  The minority who oppose change, disrupt and cause headaches for them have remained much the same, sitting on CSCC council for year after year, decade and decade, imposing their view on nearly everyone else.

That's what needs changing Ed, but good luck changing it.  You'll be the next one to be seen off I expect  ;)

Offline Ed W

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2021, 06:28:47 pm »
Badlad, I have read many valid points on this forum over the years and in this thread.  I have been an avid supporter of UK Caving and supported a number of issues raised on these forums.  I can't help feeling that it is all too easy to "blame the south", stoking the flames of division in what is a small group of people who like going underground.  I woud concede that in the past that the relationship between the BCA and CSCC was toxic, but that giant straides have been made in recent times.  I would suggest that contained in this thread is yet more of this demonisation, and that despite the efforts of a few to try and make debate within the BCA more constructive, that yet again elements are fixated on the politics of division.  Frankly I don't see much difference between cavers whatever their accent or language, it takes someone to create these artificial differences and set the mob baying for blood.

The only thing I can see "misrepresented" about the summary provided by CSCC of the AGM votes was the use of the word "poll" instead of "consultation", hardly enough reason to start demanding retractons and claiming that the evil south was attempting to hold British caving to ransom.

I am totally done with the whole bunch of schoolkids playing their nasty little games, this includes many present and past members of council who are only interested  in advancing their own agendas whatever the cost to British caving.

For what it is worth I have been by and lare very pleasantly surprised by the behaviour of both officers and members of CSCC with regard to resetting the relationship with BCA.  The toxicity I have seen has not originated from this quarter, but rather from current and past members of council who are dead set on re-fighting past battles and settling old scores.

I repeat, we ALL have to work towards building bridges rather than creating them if BCA is to survive.

Offline JoshW

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2021, 06:32:20 pm »
Josh, exactly what has been misrepresented?

See my comment regarding the poll and the comment from nearlywhite clarifying.

On phone at the moment so can’t link exact posts
All views are my own and not that of the BCA or any clubs for which I'm a member of.

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2021, 06:40:07 pm »
I do wish people would stop picking at scabs!

We're propably all equally to blame in one way or another and there are certainly people from the south who have worked long and hard for BCA but who have felt as they they have been "hounded out" by some of the northern cavers.  I'm not naming names, but not everyone who left feeling hounded made a song and dance about it afterwards - some just quietly left and deserved better thanks than they got.  It is quite possible that some of those whose sniping was responsible for these departures didn't realise that it was their actions that precipitated it - though some of what happened was quite deliberate and focussed.

There is no point in forever going over past mistakes and unpleasantness - just let's get on with working for BCA in the interests of all cavers.  We need good volunteers and we need to treat them as if they are valued, wherever in the caving country they come from.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2021, 06:42:36 pm »
Stop it everybody, it's embarrassing.

Online Shapatti

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #34 on: October 12, 2021, 06:48:57 pm »
If you want to look for the toxicity in British caving then the needle points firmly to the south.  I don't know which BCA chair was hounded out of the position but I do know a recent BCA Secretary, IT Group convenor, Webmaster, P&I Officer and C&A Officer who were certainly hounded out of office and, by their own resignation statements, it was long serving members of CSCC who shoulder the blame.

I can personally think of at least one ex-chairman who firmly points towards one particular individual in the North, though they were not at all alone in this, who's actions and behaviour was a large factor in their resignation.
Though that was never made clear in their resignation due to wanting to distance themselves as quickly as possible for mental health reasons.

I am not and will not be going to name any names though, that is up to the people involved, if they wish to speak up any more on that matter then that is down to them.

I wouldn't worry too much about Tim promoting his views, the CSCC reps are doing the same in their email networks in favour of Russell.

I agree with PeteHall's recollection of this, I haven't seen any promotion of one candidate or another from either the Club's I am a member of or through any channels from CSCC.
The only statement I have seen is the same one that Pete quoted previously from Linda Wilson.
I am actually really curious to see what 2XW has seen that I haven't, hopefully means I'm not missing out on emails...

Offline Badlad

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2021, 06:55:55 pm »
I thought the issues raised here are all relevant to the current AGM vote which is taking place.  Debate on any medium should be encouraged, not suppressed - and you shouldn't be embarrassed Andrew.

So a question leading back to the OP.  Which of the two candidates for Chairmen will be best placed to overcome the 'raw nerve' issues that are clearly still in play?

Offline Jenny P

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2021, 07:26:27 pm »
I suspect many will already have made up their minds and voted by now so let's just wait to see who gets the majority. 

And then accept the vote without griping afterwards!

Offline droid

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2021, 07:27:34 pm »
Any discussion is good but so often on here it just degenerates into 'he said she said' and defensivemess

Let's face it the contributions and views of posts on here represent a miniscule proportion of BCA membership. I'd wager that the vast proportion of members don't give a monkeys because they're only members to get the insurance.

I'll bugger off and take my medication now.
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2021, 07:44:50 pm »
I agree Droid.  The vast majority of BCA members don't look on here, or other caving media for that matter, but then again nor do they vote.  If you are a really exercised caver, one who is likely to vote at a BCA AGM, then i expect you will monitor caving media too.  The BCA podcasts and other AGM info is great but that needs to be publicised so people know it exists.  I expect the two main sources towards this info was facebook and on here.

Regarding members expressing opinions or places where members of BCA can discuss and be informed about these issues where else do they go?

Offline nearlywhite

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2021, 07:52:49 pm »
I'd like to point out that all of this is under a heading entitled 'Vote Rostam!!!' and it isn't especially helpful - in either helping my chances or in helping implement an agenda should I succeed.

My vision for the BCA is an organisation that co-ordinates and supports the various organisations within British Caving. We have an opportunity to grow and develop, effect positive change etc.

I think what this does emphasise is that stability won't be achieved by harking back to the good old days or not changing anything. We're in a tricky place, covid has made many of us keyboard warriors and genuine discussion and inclusion is harder to generate. I definitely don't have all the answers but I think competent planning of proposals, sticking to the rule book and being as transparent and as up front as possible will take at least some of the heat out of the argument.

Offline BradW

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2021, 08:00:10 pm »
I repeat, we ALL have to work towards building bridges rather than creating them if BCA is to survive.
Well said, Ed.

If it makes it easier to comprehend, if you work on building a bridge from both ends, it gets done twice as fast.

Offline droid

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2021, 08:01:14 pm »


Regarding members expressing opinions or places where members of BCA can discuss and be informed about these issues where else do they go?

A BCA Forum, members only....to keep gobby opinionated people like me away?  ::)
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2021, 09:01:40 pm »


Regarding members expressing opinions or places where members of BCA can discuss and be informed about these issues where else do they go?

A BCA Forum, members only....to keep gobby opinionated people like me away?  ::)

But BCA already has a forum and none of their members use it.  What does it say about cavers when the more controversial topics get the highest viewing figures.  Is that human nature.  The danger is that if you suppress peoples views, whatever they are or however, wherever they make their points, then the organisation is in danger of just hearing its own echo chamber views which is also unhealthy.

In any case we don't intend to run the forum for ever.  Perhaps we'll hand it over to BCA like we did Newtocaving.   :o

Online Ian Ball

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2021, 11:04:03 pm »


Regarding members expressing opinions or places where members of BCA can discuss and be informed about these issues where else do they go?

A BCA Forum, members only....to keep gobby opinionated people like me away?  ::)


how awful, a forum of back slappers ;-)




Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2021, 08:41:36 am »
how awful, a forum of back slappers ;-)

You might be surprised at the diversity of opinion within the BCA membership... :tease:

Offline David Rose

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2021, 12:45:16 pm »
Wow, this is a depressing thread.

I think one message emerges strongly from it. The BCA really is in danger of collapse.

I don't want to take sides in either the election for chair or the question of what type of consultation took place over the proposed rule change. But I do ask everyone: please, let's lower the temperature. The organisation has, obviously, been through a period of upheaval and instability and the last thing it needs is any more of it - it just won't survive.

My belief is that if it vanishes, we will all miss it a lot more than we care to realise. So let's heal, not deepen these rifts, and stop pouring the vitriol.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2021, 12:51:15 pm »
Also massively OFF TOPIC  :weep:

Offline droid

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2021, 04:27:00 pm »
Also massively OFF TOPIC  :weep:

But still relevent to BCA.
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Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2021, 05:00:37 pm »
Also massively OFF TOPIC  :weep:

But still relevent to BCA.
Quite
But not the candidate as the topic suggests.
This thread should say discuss bca constitutional changes. Just saying   :blink: : :blink:

Offline menacer

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Re: Vote Rostam!!!
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2021, 05:29:11 pm »
Given the way mainstream politics has gone in the last 5 years,
 I'm not sure it's necessarily in Rostams favour to be endorsed by a  "celebrity" these days  :lol:

There really is no need for anyone to be threatened by a bit of genuine old fashioned electioneering. 


Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done.

 

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