A Gragareth 'mystery'

[Lankyman]

I can't remember exactly when I first came across these stones, possibly in the nineties, but I've often wondered what the story behind them is. I won't give away their exact location but they're on the flank overlooking Kingsdale. They look like grave markers but obviously they aren't in consecrated ground and there are no names or dates, just the nicely carved letters. They aren't on a boundary like a parish or county either, being stuck out in the open in a vast rough pasture. I did see a farmer on a quad bike once but he was too far away to get his attention. Does anyone have any knowledge or theories?

 

[cavingbiker]

They look like some king of boundary marker stone to me.

 

[Lankyman]

They look like some king of boundary marker stone to me.

I've seen similar-looking boundary stones, all marked BS on OS maps. These two are close together (which would be odd for boundary stones) and they aren't on any boundary shown on the maps I have.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Definitely boundary stones, perhaps placed due to a dispute. You have to scroll a bit but take a look at some examples here https://www.yorkshiremilestones.co.uk/category/all-about-milestones/boundary-markers/

Edit, your first one seems to show you're in one area and the second one the boundary

 

[alanw]

They remind me of "Meer Stones". A local caver has a page about the ones on Grassington Moor.

Meer Stones of Grassington Moor

An online reference guide to the meer stones of Grassington Moor, Yorkshire

braemoor.co.uk

 

[Pitlamp]

Here's a parish boundary stone on Ingleborough (between Ingleton & Newby).

 

[Lankyman]

Boundary stones are a possibility but what I can't fathom is WHAT that boundary is? What do the letters signify (I can't think of any nearby places they'd represent)? Judging by the weathering (or lack of) and the precision of the lettering I'd guess they are late Victorian at most in age. The stone is not native, they're both brought in from elsewhere. There is a grit drystone wall not far away which would make a much more logical boundary. Sitting out in the middle of a big pasture delineated by older walls seems an odd place for boundary stones.

 

[Lankyman]

Here's a parish boundary stone on Ingleborough (between Ingleton & Newby).

View attachment 21762

I think I've seen that one before with an 'N'

Parish boundary stone, Grey Scars © Karl and Ali

The 'N' on the east face denotes Newby. Ingleborough temporarily visible between heavy showers.

www.geograph.org.uk

and another one nearby with an 'I'

Parish boundary stone and cairns, Grey... © Karl and Ali cc-by-sa/2.0

The 'I' on the west face denotes Ingleton.

www.geograph.org.uk

That boundary (and a BS) is shown on the OS map.

 

[IanWalker]

Ownership boundaries that don't follow obvious nearby dry stone walls are just the type of thing to need clear marking.

Is this near Turbary Road? Could it be peat cutting rights?7

There are water races nearby. Water abstraction?

There are coal pits in the area. Mineral rights?

Grazing boundary

Be easier if you didn't keep the location to yourself

 

[mikem]

Or could be something as simple as sections A & B of N.W. estate that were rented out to different people...

 

[s_allshorn]

I love the idea of a grazing boundary that isn't a wall or fence. The sheep are so smart!

 

[Lankyman]

Ownership boundaries that don't follow obvious nearby dry stone walls are just the type of thing to need clear marking.

Is this near Turbary Road? Could it be peat cutting rights?7

There are water races nearby. Water abstraction?

There are coal pits in the area. Mineral rights?

Grazing boundary

Be easier if you didn't keep the location to yourself

I didn't want to give the exact location in case they were personal grave markers (unlikely I know but not impossible). They're both in the Turbary Pasture WNW of Yordas. They do look like boundary markers of some kind but I don't understand why there are two of them in such close proximity. I've seen lots of boundary markers of all sorts by roads and on the fells but not in a pair like these. Is there a local history organisation who might have knowledge?

 

[Lankyman]

I love the idea of a grazing boundary that isn't a wall or fence. The sheep are so smart!

They're smart enough to use them as a scratching post!

 

[IanWalker]

Georeferenced Maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

 

[IanWalker]

https://www.ingleborougharchaeologygroup.org/_files/ugd/46c5de_f6e6c13d3e29440bb83869c41114d620.pdf

 

[IanWalker]

Sounds like the enclosure was of Thornton in Lonsdale in 1819, and that the maps are available for viewing

Thornton in Lonsdale enclosure records | The National Archives

The official archive of the UK government. Our vision is to lead and transform information management, guarantee the survival of today's information for tomorrow and bring history to life for everyone.

discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk

 

[Pony]

Doesn't have to be consecrated ground for a burial. My mum is buried in a field. Had to inform the police and possibly the local water authority, contamination of water courses. I'm not too sure on the details, the undertaker saw to it all.

 

[LadyMud]

Apparently there's a family burial ground at High Birkwith Farm (according to the sale brochure)!

 

[Lankyman]

Georeferenced Maps viewer - Map images - National Library of Scotland

maps.nls.uk

View attachment 21763

Thanks for this, Ian. They definitely seem to be turbary rights indicators. I can't resolve the map enough to see for sure but I think the one/s in my photos are by the name 'Knout'. The other ones that you've highlighted are unknown to me. I can feel another visit to Gragareth coming on - I haven't been that way since I took the photos in 2020. It seems from your other links that the actual meaning of the lettering isn't known. It must have been pretty clear to the peat cutters of Thornton back in the day. I'm still not sure why they'd have two stones so close together. Perhaps someone moved one of the other ones there (but why?). Not far from where I live a Roman road was 'discovered' and there's a milestone nearby which has been moved by a farmer from its original position. It was probably just 'in the way'.

 

[Lankyman]

Apparently there's a family burial ground at High Birkwith Farm (according to the sale brochure)!

I've seen old headstones in a garden in Cotterdale but I think the cottage used to be a chapel of some sort.