A question of cave leadership ?

[kay]

Given that the cave in question has a perfectly good lower entrance, then an easy climb bypassing the waterfall (which is I presume the second pitch in question), followed by a short crawl then easy going to the daylight hole which is the bottom of the first pitch, I'm curious as to why he was lowering people in that way instead of just going in at the bottom.

Also a bit puzzled as to why he didn't seem to know the bypass since it is described in NC and is the generally used route. The usual routefinding problem in that system is the people who abseil in and then can't find the letterbox from the 'wrong' side (eg incident no 25 http://www.cro.org.uk/incidents-2003).

 

[ianball11]

I've taken people into Calf holes without knowing the way to the letterbox or how to find the bypass. We laddered the pitch went exploring found little things to look at, enjoyed ourselves and came out the bottom.  I didn't leave the top pitch unrigged though.

Ian B.

 

[graham]

Ian

Were these people who you had to lower down the pitch?

 

[ianball11]

Hmm, yes they were lifelined, no they were on a ladder.
:-\

Ian B.

 

[exsumper]

which is why, 20-15 years ago some of us, were of the opinion that the NCA BCA, now should not have anything to do with cave leadership schemes and professional caving as this would set a legal precedent, about liability in the future. In addition professional cavers and others should pay the full amount  for setting up their own professional qualification systems organisations and insurance not ponce off of the amateur caving organisations members subscriptions.(which would be far cheaper if they didn't have to subsidise professionals). They also have a very negative affect on landowners attitude towards their own liabilities concerning access to caves on their land. The other alternative is to lynch or shoot a few lawyers "pour encourage les autres".

 

[nickwilliams]

While, in general, I have some sympathy with your argument, I think it is only fair to point out that your implication that the costs of insuring professionals are subsidised by amateur cavers is inaccurate. BCA (and BCRA before them - NCA never had an insurance scheme) do not and never have provided insurance cover for professional cavers. Furthermore, I don't believe that the presence of the training schemes within BCA's portfolio of services has any impact on the cost of our current PL policy.

Nick
(BCA PL Scheme Manager).

 

[Hammy]

They (professional cavers??) also have a very negative affect on landowners attitude towards their own liabilities concerning access to caves on their land.

I would care to suggest that the landowners of, for example, the land leading up to the Alum Pot system, fairly often used by groups of 'professionally' led cavers, are probably quite happy with the current payment arrangements for access to walk over their land.

Pure speculation on my part of course.

 

[cap n chris]

In addition professional cavers and others should ... not ponce off of the amateur caving organisations members subscriptions.

Seems very "them and us"; surely, though, the truth is that amateur cavers benefit tremendously from professionals and vice versa, neither group being isolated from the other? Where on earth would you purchase your kit from, or learn how to use technical gear, if it weren't for the (former) likes of JRat and other professionals, filtering the knowledge through the grapevine?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

which is why, 20-15 years ago some of us, were of the opinion that the NCA BCA, now should not have anything to do with cave leadership schemes and professional caving as this would set a legal precedent, about liability in the future. In addition professional cavers and others should pay the full amount  for setting up their own professional qualification systems organisations and insurance not ponce off of the amateur caving organisations members subscriptions.(which would be far cheaper if they didn't have to subsidise professionals). They also have a very negative affect on landowners attitude towards their own liabilities concerning access to caves on their land. The other alternative is to lynch or shoot a few lawyers "pour encourage les autres".

One question for you exsumper.  Who do you want to take your children caving?

 

[exsumper]

myself

 

[exsumper]

While, in general, I have some sympathy with your argument, I think it is only fair to point out that your implication that the costs of insuring professionals are subsidised by amateur cavers is inaccurate. BCA (and BCRA before them - NCA never had an insurance scheme) do not and never have provided insurance cover for professional cavers. Furthermore, I don't believe that the presence of the training schemes within BCA's portfolio of services has any impact on the cost of our current PL policy.

Nick
(BCA PL Scheme Manager).

 

[exsumper]

Nick,I think you'r being a bit disingenous with your reply, If it is the case that professionals receive no financial help from any of the caving organisations  I withdraw the remark. However I would be interested to know what financial contribution, commercial outdoor centres, proffesionals and other companies made to the initial setting up and the current running costs of the leader schemes. 100% ? 75%? 50%?. As clubs dont need them and id hate to think that clubs contributions are being used to finance this. I also remember some years ago, asking to borrow the srt kits supplied by NCA? BCRA? (I forget which)for club srt training. Only to be told These were only for club training run by a qualified proffesional.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

myself

I repeat the question.  if your children go to an outdoor centre with the school who do you want to take them caving?

 

[cap n chris]

id hate to think that clubs contributions are being used to finance this.

Seems unsurprising. One supposes that another viewpoint could be that professional contributions are indirectly financing club caving. God forbid.

Why do thoughts of wooden pegs for teeth, rickets and the eighteenth century spring to mind.

Question: how else does someone gain a National Governing Body qualification other than via a National Governing Body? Since BCA is the NGB in the UK for caving, anyone wishing to work with under 16s as a caver is required by law to have the relevant documentation provided by the former. No choice allowed.

I think there's a way to solve the dilemma...

Perhaps no-one should be allowed to work with children unless they are a rank amateur. However, methinks a change in legislation may be called for.

Wooden pegs for teeth, rickets etc.. spring to mind.

 

[cap n chris]

myself

I repeat the question.  if your children go to an outdoor centre with the school who do you want to take them caving?

Trick question, surely, Andy. Exsumper's children don't go to school - they get taught at home. Same place they get their teeth filled, their medical check-ups and their shoes made.

 

[El Agreb]

Same place they get their teeth filled, their medical check-ups

Interesting to see that after a 5 day assessment and 20 days of "leadership" experience cave instructors are comparable with dentists and doctors

 

[cap n chris]

The comparison is the term "professional".

Admittedly getting a CIC is easy-peasy; it only takes twenty noddy trips and five tests: most people could do it over a weekend, speck.

 

[exsumper]

I will clarify my position,
The root cause of the tragic accidents of the past ,involving the deaths of children involved in out door pursuits, was the negligence, or bad judgement of the individuals found responsible,both professional or amateur. I think the jury's out on whos killed more, professional or amateur. I would not like professionals as negligent as those responsible for the lyme bay canoeing disaster to take my children caving neither would I like them to be taken by an amateur whos a bungling idiot.
My main point , is that I also wouldnt like them to be taken by someone holding a Cave leader card. This scheme is a cheap cynical trick by commercial interests to comply with government legislation on the cheap. This scheme is a JOKE. I have come across many candidates scurrying around Mendip ,ticking the boxes, who until their organisation asked them to take the course, had never done any proper caving in their lives. To respond to your question andy, would i like someone with such little experience to take my children caving NO NO NO NO NO.
This scheme is an accident waiting to happen.

I'd rather give them wooden teeth and send them down the mines to work.

 

[nickwilliams]

Nick,I think you'r being a bit disingenous with your reply

You are mis-representing what I actually said. I did not disagree with your general point, indeed when I was Treasurer of NCA in the early 90's I made exactly the same point myself, having spent a good many hours filling in forms for the Sports Council in order to obtain a grant which (among other things) helped to subsidise the running of the training schemes. However, it is not correct to say that any of this grant, or any other BCA, NCA or BCRA income was or is used to subsidise insurance premiums paid by professional cavers.

BCA's current finances are very different to those of NCA. We no longer receive a grant from the Sports Council (which means we no longer need to fill in all the forms - hallelujah!) and I believe I am correct in saying that the training schemes are now self financing. That's not to say that no volunteer effort goes into the training schemes, but anyone who is involved in it these days does so entirely through their own choice. It's also fair to say that this is a reasonably recent development - in the days of the NCA, the training schemes were certainly only viable as a result of the Sports Council grant which was itself only obtained by virtue of a vast amount of volunteer effort, little of which came from anyone who might reasonably have been described as a 'professional caver'.

As regards your other comments about the schemes, I'll leave that argument to someone else, but I believe your comments would garner more respect if you were to say who you actually are rather than hiding behind a pseudonym.

Nick.

 

[martinr]

I believe your comments would garner more respect if you were to say who you actually are rather than hiding behind a pseudonym.

I was caving digging and diving a lot on the mendips a lot in the nineties, and spent a lot of time on various J rat projects. If you have any queries please feel free to ask. This is a quote from his logs, after diving with him and climbing to hear the first voice connection with priddy green sink "Both *****and I agreed that this was probably one of the best caving days of our lives".

Seems like he may have already revealed who he may be.

See this and this