A question of cave leadership ?

[damian]

I believe I am correct in saying that the training schemes are now self financing.

The recreational caver training grants are paid for by BCA (and therefore its members), but all of the professional scheme was entirely self-financing in 2007-8 ... no mean feat given the huge grant loss a few years ago that Nick mentioned. Conisderable work has been put in by the Training Officer and Training Committee (all voluntary, by the way) to make the schemes self-financing.

 

[exsumper]

yes martinR is right 'a clever chap'.
it is me Alex Gee
In reality, I have only started to cave again after a gap of 12 yrs, although I am a little alarmed at what has gone on since but I think my points are valid ones and you could score cheap points by saying i should have put up and shut up. Although I was never interested in caving politics but expressed myself, most vociferously against it at the time, also the p anchor scheme, a few chickens coming home to roost there I think. Anyway hello nick hope your keeping well and glad to hear they've still got someone with some sense involved. You know those were my views at the time and it was never personal and as you acknowledged you did have some sympathy with mine and i understood yours.At the end of the day you were always a good bloke.What you thought of me and my driving while asleep technique you never said, although I think it put the wind up TAV. i'll be in the centre of the universe next weekend if you fancy a pint.
Kind regards
Alex
Send me a PM if you like

 

[exsumper]

if its honesty you want, how about cap n chris, hammy and al agreb revealing their identities.

 

[Burt]

My main point , is that I also wouldnt like them to be taken by someone holding a Cave leader card. This scheme is a cheap cynical trick by commercial interests to comply with government legislation on the cheap. This scheme is a JOKE. I have come across many candidates scurrying around Mendip ,ticking the boxes, who until their organisation asked them to take the course, had never done any proper caving in their lives. To respond to your question andy, would i like someone with such little experience to take my children caving NO NO NO NO NO.
This scheme is an accident waiting to happen.

I'd rather give them wooden teeth and send them down the mines to work.

rather than simply critisize, why don't you actually DO a cave leader course to see what is covered in them? Especially at the higher levels you would be amazed at what is covered but you will never know, because any leader worth their salt will use their knowledge, experience and skills combined to prevent the shit hitting the fan.

My initial reaction to reading your thread was "how dare you" but on re reading it I think you are either simply ignorant of the content and nature of the LCMLA scheme, or jealous of "commercial cavers". Is it because we get paid to do your hobby?

As for "This scheme is a cheap cynical trick by commercial interests to comply with government legislation on the cheap" then just think about this: If you have an accident in a cave  due to negligence (suspected or otherwise) and it goes to court the judge will say to you "So Mr XXX, there is a nationally recognised qualification for this activity. Do you have this qualification?" Answer Yes and your case is much stronger. Answer No and you could be going down for a stretch.

Happy now?

 

[graham]

As for "This scheme is a cheap cynical trick by commercial interests to comply with government legislation on the cheap" then just think about this: If you have an accident in a cave  due to negligence (suspected or otherwise) and it goes to court the judge will say to you "So Mr XXX, there is a nationally recognised qualification for this activity. Do you have this qualification?" Answer Yes and your case is much stronger. Answer No and you could be going down for a stretch.

Happy now?

Err, no. Unless it is actually illegal to take people caving for profit unless you have a BCA qualification, then you will not be "going down for a stretch". You may well find yourself sued in the civil courts for damages consequent on your negligence, but then you can find yourself in that situation whether you are qualified or not. So can I if I am negligent on a non-commercial trip.

If it is actually illegal, then you are going down whether you are negligent or not, as it would then be an offence of strict liability.

 

[Burt]

You are right Graham, there should have been more emphasis on could go down.....

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I remember Alex Gee very well.  The first time I met Alex he was a newcomer to caving attending an SRT course I was running.  Obviously at this point he had not developed his strong feelings about professional caving.  In fact he did what would seem to a newcomer to be the obvious thing to do when you need to learn a new skill - attend a training course.  But then Alex got in with the BEC and discovered that the 'in' crowd didn't like professional cavers and almost overnight, in some strange epiphany, his views changed.  One way to get in with the 'right' people is make sure that their enemies are your enemies.  I actually don't think that the views that Alex holds are his at all - I think they are the views he absorbed from other people. 

Then Alex disappeared from the scene.  Just about anyone who caves on Mendip I tend to bump into now and again - but not Alex, so I am not sure where he gained all these insights into the standards of contemporary cave leadership.  Now suddenly he his back spewing bile about professional cavers, just like the old days, playing the same old game to gain some kudos.  Trouble is the world has moved on and what used to be so effective in ingratiating oneself with the 'in' crowd is now more likely to make the perpetrator look like bigot.  Forums can be dangerously revealing.

 

[graham]

You are right Graham, there should have been more emphasis on could go down.....

Go down for what, Burt?

I am assuming that by "go down" you mean "get a custodial sentence". What crime has been committed if you are negligent?

 

[Glenn]

also the p anchor scheme, a few chickens coming home to roost there I think.

Could you expand with valid examples, the point you are making, as at the moment, your comment makes no sense at all (at least to me).

Cheers,

Glenn

 

[exsumper]

hello Glen
What I meant from the comment "p anchors and chickens coming home to roost there" I have spent most of my working life 25 yrs, working in the construction industry and at the time I owned my own construction company. In this instance I refer to the failures of the hangers in rhino rift and other sites . At the time I had a lot of experience in using these anchors on construction sites. I opposed the training scheme proposed for their use in british caves then, because In my experience I found there was a high failure rate even using them for non critical applications, by my employees (professional construction operatives)until they built up a good level of experience in their use .  Therefore I didnt think they would be suitable for installation in cave conditions in safety critical situations by non skilled persons after a weekends training course. They are excellent anchors, but they have to be installed by skilled personnel and conditions have to be perfect. From my alpine climbing days and foreign caving exploits , I have found the french installations have been most successful, I dont know why?, maybe temperature and humidity levels have something to do with it, although again I think it has also something to do with inexperience? I note you cave in the vercors maybe you could shed some light on the subject ?.
Kind regards
Exsumper.

 

[graham]

Alex

Whilst I have no reason to doubt your professional opinion on these matters, I believe that the stats, which doubtless Glenn will have at his fingertips, will show you that the failure rate for P hangers in UK caves is actually very low indeed.

 

[cap n chris]

Is it also not the case that there hasn't yet been a proven anchor failure in Rhino Rift? (a failure of the rock around the furthest anchor on p1 [since removed], admittedly, but not a failure, per se, of any anchor).

Doubtless, as Exsumper points up, the inexperience of those who place them (presumably throughout the country), combined with the wrong humidity levels, is why UK cave-placed eco hangers are rubbish.

 

[graham]

Chris, I would hold that it counts as a failure of the installation as placing an anchor in poor rock is, by definition, poor installation.

I agree that it is exceedingly difficult to ascertain the exact condition of our caves' limestone in every position in which a bolt placement is required. Alex would, I am sure, use this to support his contention that they are unsuitable for this particular application. I, however, would now look at the body of experience of their use that has been built up in this country to demonstrate that they have proven their suitability in use.

I do find it interesting that he found French installations to be more successful as Alpine rock has a tendency to be frost-affected and wholly unsuitable for just about any sort of anchor.

 

[exsumper]

Thank you for your reply graham, I think from your response to burts comments we may be on a similar wavelength, I admit my initial comments on the forum were a little harsh, but that's probably because I had just discovered Ukcaving on a late night surfing session and a was a little tired and emotional at the time. However I still believe my comments about qualifications, being no substitute for experience and sound  judgement are correct. As for andy's comments I'm afraid i'm guilty of resserecting an old quarrel  just for personal entertainments sake.Who's perfect?. Although the statistics Glenn can supply me with are no doubt correct, (who compiles them and for what purpose). I feel that my original professional  opinion is still valid, If the anchors were not installed correctly at the time, we shall see more episodes of bolt failures and cave closures in the years to come.

 

[exsumper]

Graham
I have climbed and caved extensively on the continent, I think your comment on frost damage has no validity,I have found most of the resin anchors placed on french routes more than satisfactory. My whole point all along is that you shouldn't give certificates of competence to individuals, who do not have high levels of experience, be they bolt installers or cave leaders. Nuff said.I have no interest in supporting any of my contentions, my only interest is and always has been the safety of individuals who take part in outdoor pursuits in the mistaken belief that they are being taken into a dangerous environment by some one who  is highly experienced and knows what their doing.

 

[exsumper]

Cap,n Chris
Its impossible to debate with someone who believes that the removal of an anchor that has failed and is unsafe is not a failure of the anchor, in addition my sources inform me that that was not the only one.

 

[graham]

Hi Alex.

It is indeed very easy to be intemperate on the web and it's probably not a good idea most of the time. That said, I am still interested in your comments about bolts as I feel that our experience of this particular product is now pretty damn good now. The stats that I mentioned are compiled by the BCA equipment committee who keep records of all installations and of their regular inspections. The data on CSCC placed bolts, for example, can be found here. You can see that there are quite a number of bolts on Mendip. the failure rate is, as I said, really quite low. Yes, over time there will be other failures as wear takes its toll, but the regular inspection schedule should hopefully mean that they are not catastrophic.

No scheme can be perfect mate, but it's difficult to think of a better way of dealing with this issue in UK conditions. Peppering pitch heads with 8 mm spits was certainly unsustainable.

And, about to post, I see you have made some additional comments. I accept what you say about French installations, my own experience is relatively limited and is mainly non-Alpine anyway. I am not sure you are right about people who place bolts, as to instructors, I have my own thoughts, but some of them are best not aired on a public forum.

And another reply, sorry about this. I was present when a lot of the post RR testing was done on Mendip. It is incorrect to say that there were more failures, despite what your sources might say.

 

[Stu]

However I still believe my comments about qualifications, being no substitute for experience and sound  judgement are correct.

You presume one precludes the other.

 

[exsumper]

Hi Graham
I take your points on board, I think we both have our positions and deep down I dont think they differ much I will keep to mine and respect yours. It has been interesting, but I think I'll finish now and go and do something else. I dont think further correspondence will be of much use to either of us.
Regards
Exsumper

 

[Glenn]

Hi Alex,

You wrote: "I opposed the training scheme proposed for their use in British caves then, because In my experience I found there was a high failure rate even using them for non critical applications, by my employees (professional construction operatives)until they built up a good level of experience in their use .  Therefore I didnt think they would be suitable for installation in cave conditions in safety critical situations by non skilled persons after a weekends training course."



There are several thousand ECO Anchors installed in UK caves and we have not had a single catastrophic failure - fact. Anchors that are reported "loose" are inspected and tested and where necessary replaced. The fact that a "loose" anchor is very, very difficult to remove reinforces the strength of the system. Your comment on the quality of the installer misses the point that the correct training is vital, and I believe that the fact that we have not had a catastrophic failure proves the quality of the training.



You wrote: "Although the statistics Glenn can supply me with are no doubt correct, (who compiles them and for what purpose)."



Every ECO Anchor placed in the UK is recorded (including date of installation, who installed it and resin batch number) It's part of the system - which incidental, is the envy of the caving world, something I believe all UK cavers should be proud of. Further, the anchor system is subject to continual and ongoing testing to ensure that it remains absolutely bombroof - and that testing is managed by an industry professional.  



You wrote: "If the anchors were not installed correctly at the time, we shall see more episodes of bolt failures and cave closures in the years to come."



The experience to date suggests you are wrong. Rhino Rift was not a catastrophic failure, it was reported loose and the appropriate action taken.



You wrote:"They are excellent anchors, but they have to be installed by skilled personnel and conditions have to be perfect. From my alpine climbing days and foreign caving exploits , I have found the french installations have been most successful, I note you cave in the vercors maybe you could shed some light on the subject"



I must be missing something. You have been critical about the BCA ECO Anchor system which (as I hope I have explained) is a coordinated system with a proven track record, yet you state "french installations have been most successful". THERE IS NO COORDINATED ANCHOR PROGRAMME IN FRANCE - for caving or climbing (NB: I am not including via ferrata here). Anchors in France (either for climbing or caving) are installed by any Tom, Dick or Pierre with no training and to no standard. Yet you are happy with this?

I suspect you are just trolling and this is probably the last time I will post on this thread - life's too short. All the information on the BCA ECO Anchor programme is available on the BCA web site.

Cheers,

Glenn