A simple question - How many Mendip Caves are on Access Land?

[Simon Wilson]

Let's go back to the rhetorical question asked in the topic heading.

It is clear from what has been said that CRoW makes no difference whatsoever to caves on Mendip.

So why are so many Mendip cavers so strongly opposed to CRoW?

 

[topcat]

I really can't be bothered trawling through SIX pages just to get a simple figure.........................so, how many caves in Mendip on Crow land????

FFS!  6 pages!  There can only be one answer to this and it is one word / figure !!   

)

 

[jasonbirder]

Two genuine cave Systems that are likely to be visited by Cavers over a typical year...

I'm sure someone will come and say hundreds...but if you ignore digs/badger holes/caves of 30 - 40ft its basically St Cuthberts and Upper Flood

 

[bograt]

Two genuine cave Systems that are likely to be visited by Cavers over a typical year...

I'm sure someone will come and say hundreds...but if you ignore digs/badger holes/caves of 30 - 40ft its basically St Cuthberts and Upper Flood

"digs/badger holes/caves of 30 - 40ft", the majority will not go beyond 'the limit of daylight', so access is already allowed ---. 

 

[menacer]

Let us imagine that the interpretation of the act is changed to include caving....

DEFRA receive a letter complaining that Upper Flood and Waterwheel are gated denying cavers their rights.  What do they do?  Probably nothing for days, weeks or months while they ruminate on it......

or

DEFRA receive a letter complaining that Upper Flood and Waterwheel gates have been removed by persons unknown, What do they do?  Probably nothing for days, weeks or months while they ruminate on it......

The other side of a possible scenario,  both scenarios could happen anytime regardless of CROW status.


(NB the gate on Waterwheel has just been changed due to wear and tear, quite quickly, once reported, no major bureaucracy involved)

 

[menacer]

But is it democracy? Do the extremists like Cookie really represent the majority view of Mendip cavers?

Well he doesnt represent me, and Im not alone.
However I also know any debate is a futile one. (not that I know "what the debate is" because Ive never believed  theres going to be a demand to rip gates of caves there. St Cuthberts and UFS almost by their nature preclude any but the more advance caver)

Certainly all/most the people in the key control position think the same as Cookie, they would unlikely  be in those positions otherwise

Mendip is quite a different kettle of fish to other caving regions.(not meant as a dig)  Its cultural, (cave types and ease of getting to formations) almost runs on a Dicgatorship...see what I did there.

For your own sanity, Id move on Simon...It took a coup to change things in CNCC, it would take more than that in Mendip....however age catches up with everyone eventually 

(above post intended to be humorous, not personal to anyone)

 

[Peter Burgess]

Peter

I don't think Jason wants you to support what he wants. I think he wants you to stop undermining something that has been democratically decided as being beneficial to cave access, something with massive pro's and in reality very few con's (if it's done right)

Tat's fine. I m not undermining anyone or anything. I am trying to be helpful by pointing out problems everyone should be aware of.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Gating combined with a warden does work. Really well.

I don't know why you keep telling us this. Why do you think that you need to defend your policy of gating? CRoW poses no challenge to your gating policy at all. CRoW makes no difference whatsoever on Mendip.

By conducting a public campaign against CRoW Cookie and his co-campaigners are doing damage to the public image of caving and the BCA. What benefit can there possibly be in what they are doing?

 

[badger]

there is a big difference in mendip/dales and unfortunately crow or no crow that's not going to change,
those on mendip cant see that actually the mechanisms are in place so that with crow the caves like UPS, St cuthberts will remain with the same access conditions as they have now. and cavers who visit mendips will understand and respect that,
in the same breath the cavers of mendips who visit the dales will get the benefit of crow, and with this access you can use better judgement to whether they are suitable to go down on a given day with the weather, and not push yourself to go down cause you waited so long for a permit

 

[Kenilworth]

By conducting a public campaign against CRoW ... are doing damage to the public image of caving and the BCA. What benefit can there possibly be in what they are doing?

What benefit is there in preserving or enhancing the public image of caving and the BCA? Caving doesn't need a public image, and there are some who believe that fewer cavers and less of a mainstream presence should be seriously considered as an important conservation measure. While I would not pretend to guess at anyone's motivations, or that I understand the vagaries of the CRoW act and its relation to UK caving, I am sympathetic to such viewpoints. Just one possibility.

 

[droid]

A few comments in a local rag, and debates on a forum are hardly a 'public campaign' anyway.

It's about time some people got a sense of perspective: caving is a minority sport/pastime.
Very important to those that do it, it's virtually invisible to the general public (unless there's a rescue), mainly due to it's nature.

To most people the question of open access to caves is an esoteric irrelevance. And herein lies the problem. BCA can throw money at CRoW all it likes, Tim can conduct a campaign of brilliance, but the whole thing will be ignored by the bulk of parliament and the public. That isn't the fault of those questioning the Constitution, or conservation, it's just the nature of the beast.

I can't help thinking that if a similar effort (and there's been a lot of effort, I'm in awe of the work Tim's put in on this) was put into revising the permit system for the Dales, then there'd be a lot more to show for it.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I'm in awe of the work Tim's put in on this)

We all are, thank you Tim.

... revising the permit system for the Dales, then there'd be a lot more to show for it.

You really haven't been paying attention have you.

 

[droid]

Probably not.

Makes two of us, doesn't it.....lol

 

[cavermark]

By conducting a public campaign against CRoW ... are doing damage to the public image of caving and the BCA. What benefit can there possibly be in what they are doing?

What benefit is there in preserving or enhancing the public image of caving and the BCA?

Funding for things like cave rescue for a start....

 

[cap n chris]

Gating combined with a warden does work. Really well.

I don't know why you keep telling us this.

It was NOT a CRoW-related response; it was a pure/simple response to an earlier post which pointed out that gating per se does not protect caves and this is something that I agree with, hence the additional comment that to protect caves which are gated you need to add a conservation warden to the package. Nothing to do with CRoW other than that the posts happened to crop up inside this thread. Move on.

 

[badger]

not sure chris has been the one who keeps saying this rather than saying yes this approach has and does work really well.

 

[menacer]

there is a big difference in mendip/dales and unfortunately crow or no crow that's not going to change,
those on mendip cant see that actually the mechanisms are in place so that with crow the caves like UPS, St cuthberts will remain with the same access conditions as they have now. and cavers who visit mendips will understand and respect that,
in the same breath the cavers of mendips who visit the dales will get the benefit of crow, and with this access you can use better judgement to whether they are suitable to go down on a given day with the weather, and not push yourself to go down cause you waited so long for a permit

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