Access Changes to caves controlled by Charterhouse Caving Company?

[Alex]

So glad I live up north, only show caves should have such stringent access agreements. Last time I checked GB is not a show cave. Is it on access land? If so then I can see why those who run the Charter house empire are so much against open access.

The cave should be open to all, and if the focus is conservation, then gate the pretty bits which from memory are hidden in a side passage, so doable.

 

[Pegasus]

I've just watched a video posted by Derbyshire NW Scout Caving Team on facebook.  Lots of kids having lots of fun underground - marvellous.

https://www.facebook.com/DNWSCT/?hc_ref=ARRXDYjID9p-le9nI9Sr1ZlDLJrpZplotjIuk74nt1L1M4ADRhaY8GF1D8UbIAf6Ghs&fref=nf

 

[phil lilley]

Not read the whole thread but did get a notification of a shared post from my facebook page so came to have a look..
The Derbyshire northwest scouts caving team was set up by me at the request of Derbyshire caving club who control access to  the mines at Alderly edge. We are in a unique possition where we can access the underground at anytime.
The kids in the video thats been shared are stamping their feet to make the ground shake as we tell them they are above the mine. Its a bit of a giggle and relaxes the nervous ones befpre we head underground

 

[Oceanrower]

Kids having fun in a cave? Shouldn't be allowed. Wouldn't happen on Mendip...

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Many many years ago I watched a stream of boy scouts coming out of Rod's Pot. As stated a rare sight on Mendip now.

 

[Pegasus]

Not read the whole thread but did get a notification of a shared post from my facebook page so came to have a look..
The Derbyshire northwest scouts caving team was set up by me at the request of Derbyshire caving club who control access to  the mines at Alderly edge. We are in a unique possition where we can access the underground at anytime.
The kids in the video thats been shared are stamping their feet to make the ground shake as we tell them they are above the mine. Its a bit of a giggle and relaxes the nervous ones befpre we head underground

Hi Phil, I watched your video and it really made me smile  .  Looked like the kids were having loads of fun.  Well done to you and your team 

 

[phil lilley]

Roughly taking 900 kids a year underground but will pass 1000 easily

 

[mrodoc]

I had a look in my log and see my first trip into GB was when I was 19. I led the trip, the only other person being my father. We managed to find our way through to Great Chamber - got some decent photos too. I hadn't got intoit  earlier because of the complications of getting a key, permits etc. Fortunately we knew a well known Mendip caver who helped us through the red tape. A much trickier cave to do IMO is Lamb Leer and I descended that when I was sixteen.  What people need to realise is that many access restrictions bear no relation to the difficulty or beauty of a cave but to the quirks of history. One accident more than half a century ago resulted in GB being locked. Some  formation damage was done prior to this and some by visitors after access restrictions were introduced. 

I regard the age restriction as a case of pulling up the drawbridge once you are in and it is sad that is people of my age doing it. And I must say I have never heard of the 4 cave rule which is laughable. Would Whitespot, Sandford Levy and a couple of mines count? 

We are in the middle of an obesity epidemic and yet seem be actively discouraging young people to be adventurous. As Donald Trump would say" Sad."

 

[pwhole]

Just out of interest, as a mainly Derbyshire caver, how is the '4 trip' rule enforced? How do they know you're not just making it up? I have been in GB, but didn't organise it, so no idea what the rules are. I'd certainly done more than 4 when I went in, before anyone asks  :halo:

 

[PeteHall]

GB was my first caving trip  :tease:

Though I won't incriminate those from a northern club who led the trip, or those from a CSCC club who gave us the key...

 

[PeteHall]

I could add that I was over 16 at the time...

 

[Alex]

They enforce the 4 trip rule by looking at your facebook profile of course. Its not that  long of a drive to Cambridge from there

 

[mrodoc]

They enforce the 4 trip rule by looking at your facebook profile of course. Its not that  long of a drive to Cambridge from there

 

[tim.rose2]

I remember my first trip in GB - I was 14 at the time.  My father did a bit of caving (held a level 1 ticket mostly to take kids into Flagpole on Portland).  He was encouraged to be more of a caver to retain his LCMLA (funnily enough by a mendip caver) however attempts to do so was always awkward not being a member of a caving club.  He attempted to join a caving club (East Dorset SS) but that folded around the time we tried to join which I guess was just bad luck.  We and his friends from Weymouth outdoor ed center and Kingston Maurwood College (who also had LCMLA tickets) mostly repeated Swildons (sump 1 and back as he did not like sumps / ducks), goatchurch and prid with the occasional excursion to places like Lionels, Sidcot and Rods (no through trip in those days) as trips for pleasure until bored.  Obviously trips to the usual places on Portland were regular too.  I didn't go but I think they tried Eastwater once and hated the place.  All of this was only during winter months as sailing took over in the summer.  We meet a chap along the way who used to live in Weymouth and had done a fair bit of caving.  He told us he would take us to GB but let him do the talking.  At the time it all went over my head but the technique involved lying about being members of a particular Yorkshire caving club, hiding me in the car whilst this occurred in a Mendip hut (apparently the third person was meeting us at the cave), putting false details on 3 permits and then getting on with a bloody brilliant trip.  The chap who took us was clearly well practiced at getting into locked Mendip caves!

After this my father tried to get legit access with a leader to Charterhouse (this was before the cave got bigger) and also Upper Flood and was told no it wouldn't be possible - Mendip club members only.  He wasn't a hugely experienced caver, but Charterhouse and Upper Flood old caves would have more than been within his capabilities.  He gave up with mendip caving not long after this but continued taking loads of kids caving on Portland for a couple of years.  He also used Prid a fair bit during Dartmoor weekends.  Unfortunately Dorset County Council then effectively banned caving on Portland so he gave up.  I know that one trip to GB was the highlight of his caving career.  I then didn't cave for quite a few years either until a work colleague convinced me to take him caving - one trip and I had the bug again.  By this time I could drive, had job + money so got back into it and that was 10 years ago.

Access on Mendips needs sorting out.  Being a member of one of the clubs it's easier for me than my Dad found it but a combination of the journey seeming to keep taking longer and then having to mess around with keys / leaders for so many trips I've got fed up.  These are the two reasons for my recent renewed interest in the caves on Portland.  No keys, easier journey, no politics, no leaders, just turn up and have fun.

I have to think of the many 100s of teenagers my Father took caving - they all enjoyed it but soon lost interest when when he explained he could only take them to a few rubbish caves on Portland, Goatchurch and Prid.  If only they'd seen GB or a trip to sump 1 and back perhaps a few would have stuck at it.

 

[aricooperdavis]

The GB access is a nightmare for us university cavers. It is a perfect cave to take people in on their second weekend trip when they want a little bit of adventure, but also some pretties, maybe some bats, and not too much mud. Our leaders are experienced, sensible, and careful, and our novices are not going to run off and break things (themselves or formations), so this access agreement infuriates me - it's so needlessly prohibitive. I would be astounded if this rule came from the Somerset Wildlife Trust.

I agree with you Tim, access on Mendip could do with an overhaul - especially age restrictions or restrictions for novices even if they're with experienced leaders. The term, very aptly, is gatekeeping. Maybe the CSCC would consider promoting better access arrangements?

 

[andrewmcleod]

Just out of interest, as a mainly Derbyshire caver, how is the '4 trip' rule enforced? How do they know you're not just making it up? I have been in GB, but didn't organise it, so no idea what the rules are. I'd certainly done more than 4 when I went in, before anyone asks  :halo:

From the rules on the CCC website:
"2. Novices must not be introduced to caving in the Charterhouse area caves. By way of guidance, the Company feels that cavers who have done less than 4 previous trips are likely to be still novices, as are all cavers who feel the need for professional leadership."

I think the rule is widely ignored, possibly mostly through ignorance.

 

[Aubrey]

I have to think of the many 100s of teenagers my Father took caving - they all enjoyed it but soon lost interest when when he explained he could only take them to a few rubbish caves on Portland, Goatchurch and Prid.  If only they'd seen GB or a trip to sump 1 and back perhaps a few would have stuck at it.

There have never been any access controls on trips to Swildons Sump 1, or any other part of Swildons Hole so why are you suggesting there were?
The destruction of Barnes Loop in Swildons is an example of what happens when free access is available into to our caves.
There are many Mendip caves with open access and just a few of the better preserved have access controls over and above the freely available CSCC key system.

 

[Jenny P]

FWIW, Barnes Loop had already been destroyed when I first saw it in 1960!  That's nearly 60 years ago now so there were some cavers around in those days who didn't care about caves too much.

I'd like to think that we all behave better than that now and that the efforts being made to educate cavers on conservation issues are bearing fruit.  Certainly most clubs now make an effort to impress on their members the importance of cave conservation - regional councils in the North and the Peak District have a great deal of information on their websites and going out to clubs on their Cave Monitoring activities, working with Natural England.  There is far less restriction on access in these areas but there doesn't seem to be a huge increase in vandalism.

I'm not familiar with the Southern and Welsh regional council websites but assume they have similar conservation and cave monitoring material on their websites.

Incidentally, I don't get the impression that anyone was suggesting that ALL caves on Mendip have unnecessary access controls.  But it does seem rather time-consuming if you are not from a Mendip club to be able to obtain the permit and key required for some caves.  Restricting access to under 18's is a pity - Peak Cavern seems to have no problems but it depends on the attitude of the landowner and also, of course, on the attitude of those cavers involved in the negotiations for access.

 

[Aubrey]

Barnes Loop has deteriorated significantly since I first saw it in the early 1960s. There are photographs to prove this.

The recent vandalism in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink shows there are currently real conservation issues in Mendip caves. How can we preserve our best caves?

 

[ian.p]

I think there are a couple of issues coming out of this discusion:
1) It is patently obvious to anyone who is involved in the scouting /youth end of caving or was recently a youth (im involved with two clubs that take children caving) that more then two 16-18 year olds have been to GB i would wager in the last month let alone the last year. I used to regularly go to GB between the age of 16-18 years old I even took a group of students from Cardiff uni CC down the cave during that time i was never asked to fill out a waiver so i never did. The fact that so few waivers are being filled out is clearly because there is no understanding or implementation of the scheme not that there aren't any 16-18 year old's going caving in CCC caves.

2) It is apparent that the CCC is not a company that exists to promote access it exists to Controll access primarily for the purpose of conservation. The land owner does not have any more liability risk then any other landowner with a cave on there land and I've seen no evidence to suggest that this change in the access has anything at all to do with the landowners liability. The group with a problem is the CCC. By controlling access via a paid permit scheme the board of directors opens themselves up to liability and it seems to me its for this reason that this change to access has been put in place.

3) The CCC was set up as a best solution to an access problem many years ago. If it cannot maintain access for 16-18 year olds and strive to facilitate access to all ages (there is no reason why a responsible 14 year old would be any greater conservation risk then a hung over fresher on a sunday trip) then it is not fit for purpose and should be wound up and an alternative access scheme put in place for example access via CSCC key.