Access Changes to caves controlled by Charterhouse Caving Company?

[ian.p]

And i would add that if you read most of the well known caving biographies available you will notice that for most of the authors there enthusiasm begins in pre-university experiances between the ages of 16-18.
Think about it, how do you think Mendip characters like Tony Jaratt and David yeandle would react to the idea of caves slowly being declared of limits to children begining caving at the ages they did and think about the loss to caving it would of been if they had decided to become ramblers instead. The CCC needs to take a long hard look at itself and then decide if it needs to exist at all.

 

[braveduck]

How much does CCC charge for a permit ?
If the cave is on open access land you are not allowed to charge
for access. That explains so much that has been going on recently.

 

[PeteHall]

The recent vandalism in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink shows there are currently real conservation issues in Mendip caves. How can we preserve our best caves?

The vandalism in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink, was an isolated and very deliberate act in a locked cave and shows there is currently an individual (or group) who have on one occasion visited a Mendip cave.

It is not representative of a wider conservation problem in Mendip, nor does it support the case for locking caves to prevent damage.

I really can't see why you think it is even slightly relevant to age restrictions in CCC caves.

 

[PeteHall]

How much does CCC charge for a permit ?

It's about 10p to cover printing costs for the permit  if I remember correctly. I doubt it's a big money maker, but I could be wrong...

 

[pete h]

The permit cost is 50 pence.

It is interesting to read comments from mrodoc and old ruminator regarding age restrictions as they are wardens for Reservoir Hole, where they require you to sign a waiver form from Cheddar Caves which includes a tick box to certify that you are over 18.

 

[ian.p]

do you know what the fees are used for pete? I'm assuming an insurance policy for the CCC as it will fall out of the remit of the BCA insurance policy as it is a commercial venture?

 

[Rhys]

How much does CCC charge for a permit ?
If the cave is on open access land you are not allowed to charge
for access. That explains so much that has been going on recently.

GB Cavern is not on or in Access Land.

 

[ian.p]

Does anyone know Did the CCC access system pre date the present BCA land owner insurance scheme? and if so is there any reason why the CCC and its need to hold insurance is not now completely obsolete? Is there any reason for not renegotiating the access to the CCC controlled caves so that there access can be controlled instead by the CSCC?

 

[andrewmcleod]

The permit cost is 50 pence.

It is interesting to read comments from mrodoc and old ruminator regarding age restrictions as they are wardens for Reservoir Hole, where they require you to sign a waiver form from Cheddar Caves which includes a tick box to certify that you are over 18.

That has definitely been forced on the caving community by Cheddar Caves, and is I think very different to the situation with SWT (where CCC caves on their land have a waiver and a consequent age limit but other caves on their land apparently do not).

 

[BradW]

Perhaps those so keen to see change, especially those local to the caves, should engage responsibly with the Company, or with their club reps, and get a true insight into the real issues here. Causing a public furore, largely in ignorance as I suspect is happening here, has the potential to cause immense harm. Be careful what you wish for! I speak as a caver with no representation in CCC, and as a caver that rarely caves in Somerset. I do believe, however, from being involved in similar matters over many years, that the vast majority of cavers that liaise with owners, do NOT impose restrictions just for the hell of it, despite what a few people here persistently claim at frequent intervals. I hope the CCC are aware of the disquiet and can explain why the restriction is necessary. Taking an aggressive stance with them is probably not going to get the explanation you need, I think.

 

[ian.p]

Do not mistake posting on hear as being the only place we are asking for change many of us in CCC member clubs are now lobbying our reps and the issue is being raised by other concerned parties with BCA. Rememberh this change was enacted by the directors of the CCC and not voted in by CCC club reps. However community opinion matters and this forum is a rapid and effective way of communicating witha very broad spectrum of the caving world. Sadly as was the case in the north until relatively recently it is not without precedent that a small group of cavers have sought to control and restrict access to caves far beyond what was actually required by the landowner.

 

[BradW]

Ian, you have not demonstrated to us in any definitive way that the restrictions are "far beyond what was actually required by the landowner". Do you know what the landowner requires? Perhaps the Directors do. Let's hope that the Directors will explain to the Company why the change was made, so that you can happily withdraw your unsupported accusation about their actions.

 

[ian.p]

from the formal letter of objection from the Wessex CC relating to the CCC raising the age limit for access:

"More fundamentally, why are waivers required to visit to the Caves where access is controlled by CCCLtd? We understand the use of waivers was agreed with Somerset Wildlife Trust as part of the access arrangements. However the access arrangements were agreed many years ago and do not seem to reflect SWT's practices elsewhere.  For example SWT has other reserves, including Ashwick Grove, Black rock, Chancellor?s Farm, Draycott Sleights, Lynchcombe, Middledown and Ubley Warren, which contain caves and sites of karst and mining interest. SWT has informed the caving community that visits to these may be made without seeking formal permission provided the Countryside Code and the simple rules applicable to the reserve are observed. (See Mendip Underground 5 for details). Therefore it would appear that SWT will allow access to caves within their reserves without the need for waivers, permissions or age restrictions and one would assume they are happy to rely upon the modern legislation to protect them from any liability.  If this is their current position then now is a good opportunity for CCC Ltd to review the access arrangements with them, with the aim of simplifying them and removing as many restrictions as possible to allow the widest enjoyment of these unique resources."

 

[tim.rose2]

There have never been any access controls on trips to Swildons Sump 1, or any other part of Swildons Hole so why are you suggesting there were?

Apologies, I didn't make that clear and I'm mixing up two differing restrictions.  The issue with Dad taking groups into Swildons related to what caves his LCMLA ticket allowed (I think the upper series is included now and may have been back then but he certainly didn't have it).  I know that's an unrelated restriction and not for this discussion.  The fact remains Prid in Devon was by far the most impressive cave (I think it's way better than Goatchurch) Dad was able to take teenagers to.  As I mentioned we used to do sump 1 and back as a personal trip regularly. 

There are many Mendip caves with open access and just a few of the better preserved have access controls over and above the freely available CSCC key system.

The CSCC key might be readily available but doesn't make caving easy - I have access to one via the club I'm a member of but...  If I want to visit Hillier / Fairy I have to drive 10 miles past the cave, pick up a key, drive 10 miles back to the cave and then repeat this 20 mile round trip afterwards (though the afterwards is more worthwhile for the showers).  This adds 1h20 of time to the day and 40 miles.  Given that it's already 1h30 drive and 50 miles from home (Poole) it's rather annoying.  Yes I'm aware I could go in Fairy & out Hilliers without a key but it's better the other way around particularly if you find one of your team don't fit through the squeeze at the connection (which has happened).  So in my opinion the CSCC key is a pain in the butt and serves little purpose in this instance as the whole cave can be accessed without the key providing you don't eat too many pies.  I've just picked this as an example as it's the one that annoys me the most.  The same principal applies elsewhere.

Please don't think I'm anti conservation in Fairy Quarry as I think the system for Shatter and Withyhill on the other hand is appropriate, but then I think all who visit these sites will appreciate just how vulnerable and special they are.

In terms of conservation in general - if you don't want others to enjoy the caves (which does bring a small risk of some things being vandalised by a minority as per HLIS) then either don't discover them in the first place or empty a lorry load of concrete into the entrance immediately after discovery.  Just out of interest who breaks the most stal and leave the most mess on Mendip - vandals or  diggers?  Based on the amount of broken stal I've seen in spoil heaps near digs and the number of manky old tools, buckets, scaffold etc lying around I suspect those with the bang win by a long way.  I'm not saying this is wrong - in fact please keep finding me new caves to visit - but in my opinion the most destructive phase is the discovery and not the occasional accident or even more occasional deliberate act afterwards.

On a more positive note, for those who also find keys a pain, here are my hassle free Mendip recommendations...
Mangle Hole - yes it muddy but a very enjoyable (until you get to the cleaning afterwards bit)
Welsh's Green - not as bad as it's reputation and well worth a visit
Lionels Hole
Honeymeads (when the air is good)
Swildons
Eastwater
Manor farm (when the air is good)
Baths / Rods
Thrupe Lane (when it's not blocked)

 

[BradW]

from the formal letter of objection from the Wessex CC relating to the CCC raising the age limit for access:

Thanks for pointing that out, Ian. The point remains that whereas the Wessex letter is seeking clarification and change to be provided by the Directors, your posts appear as if you have already made up your mind, are happy to ignore the rules, and have passed judgement using the Wessex letter as your evidence. Would it not be more prudent to follow the example of the Wessex and do things properly, and not wave your protest banners around here?

 

[alastairgott]

Ian has made many people aware of an issue. If he didn't feel strongly about it, then I'm sure he wouldn't have bothered.
I knew there were others that were working on it and there wasn't a lot I could add to the large unbiased document they were producing on the matter.

I commend Ian for bringing people's attention to a matter which is of debateable importance to the future of Mendip caving and perhaps debateable importance to Uk Caving as a whole.

The ensuing discussion (debate) has been heartfelt and well rounded, showing reaction from many corners of the caving community.

I'll admit, yes, the discussion has been one sided, mainly in favour of under 18's caving. Are there any counter arguments?

 

[BradW]

Yes I am sure the intention is good, and I doubt there are many, if any, cavers who don't want to encourage youngsters to get underground. My personal view is that the stance taken by some here appears quite aggressive and presumptuous, and that may well be counter-productive, which would a loss for everyone regardless of what they think is best.

 

[ian.p]

Brad yes my stance is extremely partisan however in terms of putting trust in the system and waiting for the proper order of things to sort themselves out consider the way this change has been enacted:
The directors of the company unilaterally changed the access agreement without consulting or notifying the member clubs. One of my housemates is a Charterhouse leader and even he wasn't informed as to the impending change or the actual change once it happened! Have you seen any official statement since the change was enacted explaining why the change was deemed necessary? there isn't even one on there website as far as i can see. If an organisation is going to behave in that way they don't deserve to be trusted.   

 

[BradW]

Governing bodies will often have to act quickly and without immediate consultation - I have no idea if that is the case here or not. If it is, then perhaps you are not going to know unless you ask them. Communication is a skill that is best learnt by both parties. How it works in clubs is that a committee will often act without consultation because the club governance has been entrusted to them. They are held accountable by election. To unilaterally display a lack of trust in the Directors without consultation is perhaps not a wise thing to do either.

 

[pete h]

Brad yes my stance is extremely partisan however in terms of putting trust in the system and waiting for the proper order of things to sort themselves out consider the way this change has been enacted:
The directors of the company unilaterally changed the access agreement without consulting or notifying the member clubs. One of my housemates is a Charterhouse leader and even he wasn't informed as to the impending change or the actual change once it happened! Have you seen any official statement since the change was enacted explaining why the change was deemed necessary? there isn't even one on there website as far as i can see. If an organisation is going to behave in that way they don't deserve to be trusted. 

The decision to change was because of legal advice. All club reps were informed in July 2017, if this was not passed on to their committees, leaders and membership it is not the fault of CCC Ltd.