Access Re Caves on Longleat Land ( ie Reservoir Hole )
- Thread starter The Old Ruminator
- Start date
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
Extract from BCA's Child Protection Policy at http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=legal_insurance:child_protection_policy_2013.pdf
2.05 BCA encourages the participation of young persons in caving and mine exploration, provided that:-.
a. The introduction of caving to these persons is carried out by suitably experienced adults.
b. It is done in a progressive manner attuned to the physical and mental capacities of the participants.
c. The conservation requirements of this unique environment are stressed as an integral part of the educational development of the individual.
and from Guidance
2.03 POCA clearly spells out ?abuse ? as including ?sexual ?, ? emotional ? and ?physical? abuse and also ?neglect ?. Neglect in terms of caving must be taken to include failing to ensure physical safety, adequate/appropriate nutrition and protection against hypothermia, drowning, rock-fall, injury through falling, etc.
So no 'simple' age impediments (like no under 18s) there. Indeed the phrase "attuned to the physical and mental capacities of the participants" could equally apply to adults.
2.05 BCA encourages the participation of young persons in caving and mine exploration, provided that:-.
a. The introduction of caving to these persons is carried out by suitably experienced adults.
b. It is done in a progressive manner attuned to the physical and mental capacities of the participants.
c. The conservation requirements of this unique environment are stressed as an integral part of the educational development of the individual.
and from Guidance
2.03 POCA clearly spells out ?abuse ? as including ?sexual ?, ? emotional ? and ?physical? abuse and also ?neglect ?. Neglect in terms of caving must be taken to include failing to ensure physical safety, adequate/appropriate nutrition and protection against hypothermia, drowning, rock-fall, injury through falling, etc.
So no 'simple' age impediments (like no under 18s) there. Indeed the phrase "attuned to the physical and mental capacities of the participants" could equally apply to adults.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Non-club caving (i.e professionally led) doesn't have issues with under 18s.
Bob Mehew said:
Very good wording - avoids rigidity of applying ages. I go underground at times with an adult who has some learning difficulties so the trips are carefully chosen with that person's capacities very much in mind. As they have progressed and grown, it feels at times that its my aging capabilities that are becoming the limiting factor! :-[
The age 18 is one of those legal watersheds - there are all kinds of things people are not legally allowed to do before that birthday but are allowed to do afterwards. I was at an event on the bank holiday weekend and an almost-eighteen-year-old was bemoning the fact that there was a bunch of things they were not allowed to do at the event because they were a fortnight under the age of 18, observing that they would not be radically more mature or capable of making important decisions in fourteen days time but would be allowed to do all those things - starting, inevitably, with buying alcohol. But that's the way with legal age thresholds... :
Whilst upper and lower ages have been mentioned up-thread, gender has not. Consider this extract from the opening passage from Jasper Fforde's novel "The last dragonslayer" where the protagonist, Jennifer Strange, sets the scene:
"I was driving, which might have been unusual anywhere but here in the Kingdom of Snodd, which was unique in the Ununited Kingdoms for having driving tests based on maturity, not age. Which explained why I'd had a driving licence since I was thirteen, while some blokes were still failing to make the grade at forty."
Try re-reading it with 'caving' substituted for 'driving'... :doubt:
rhychydwr1
Active member
Bump in to Viscount Weymouth the other day and the conversation got around to caving. He was quite knowable. His main source is ukCaving. Might be advisable to tone down this topic.
David Rose
Active member
Ah, Viscount Weymouth.
First of all, the aristocracy swears more than any other social group. So no need to tone anything down.
Anyhow: your lordship, if you are reading this, my hunch is you may not be entirely aware of some of the actions being carried out in the name of your estate, nor that they are arousing such ill-feeling.
Would you like to meet some cavers to discuss the matter?
And if he's not - well, why don't some of us organise a delegation?
First of all, the aristocracy swears more than any other social group. So no need to tone anything down.
Anyhow: your lordship, if you are reading this, my hunch is you may not be entirely aware of some of the actions being carried out in the name of your estate, nor that they are arousing such ill-feeling.
Would you like to meet some cavers to discuss the matter?
And if he's not - well, why don't some of us organise a delegation?
cap n chris
Well-known member
droid said:
There
are
no
restrictions.
There
is
access.
With
conditions.
NewStuff
New member
Fulk said:
On the whole, it's just my opinion.
However, consider that a lot of people, including those firmly on the opposite side of the access fence, say that cavers are getting a lot older on average and that the hobby needs new blood. Without new stuff* to do/see/listen to/think about, any hobby will get stagnant.
*Stuff - Will vary across different hobbies.
David Rose
Active member
By the time I went to university in 1978, I'd done quite a lot of caving, and I knew I loved it. I lived in London, but I'd been down many caves in the south of England and Wales as well as a few in Yorkshire. Some of those systems are now effectively closed to under-18s, including St Cuthberts, Longwood Swallet and Agen Allwedd.
Naturally enough, when I started uni I joined Oxford University Cave Club, which was then an incredibly strong, keen group, organising numerous, well-attended meets every term and in the vacations, culminating in the expeditions to the Picos that saw us explore Pozu del Xitu down to its first sump at - 1135 metres. Quite a few of us had been active before getting to uni, and that meant we had skills and experience to pass on to others to help create our team.
Nowadays, access restrictions, at least in Wales and the South, make it much more difficult for teenagers, and the knock-on effects are clear. Several once-proud university clubs have folded. Others - sadly, Oxford included - are a great deal smaller and weaker than once they were. OUCC mounted expeditions to the Picos every year from 1979 to 2012. It's no longer strong enough, which is why the exciting onging explorations in "our" former area are now being carried on by the Ario Caves Project, which is only loosely linked with Oxford, and run by Steph Dwyer and Mike Bottomley, who have never been OUCC members. (And who deserve much gratitude for keeping the flame burning.)
That's just one argument that illustrates why the whole sport is weakened by unnecessary and illogical age restrictions. To keep up their interest, once they are past the beginner stage, young cavers need a steady supply of challenging, exciting trips, that preferably don't require them to spend many hours in a car. I remember when the Lancaster University club fresher weekends needed coaches to transport the new recruits, there were so many of them. You'd see them parked in Ingleton. On the back of that influx came many discoveries in England, and the exploration of magnificent caves such as Cueva del Agua and 56 ( - 1169 metres) in Spain. LUSS no longer exists.
Age restrictions are part of the reason for this saddening decline.
Naturally enough, when I started uni I joined Oxford University Cave Club, which was then an incredibly strong, keen group, organising numerous, well-attended meets every term and in the vacations, culminating in the expeditions to the Picos that saw us explore Pozu del Xitu down to its first sump at - 1135 metres. Quite a few of us had been active before getting to uni, and that meant we had skills and experience to pass on to others to help create our team.
Nowadays, access restrictions, at least in Wales and the South, make it much more difficult for teenagers, and the knock-on effects are clear. Several once-proud university clubs have folded. Others - sadly, Oxford included - are a great deal smaller and weaker than once they were. OUCC mounted expeditions to the Picos every year from 1979 to 2012. It's no longer strong enough, which is why the exciting onging explorations in "our" former area are now being carried on by the Ario Caves Project, which is only loosely linked with Oxford, and run by Steph Dwyer and Mike Bottomley, who have never been OUCC members. (And who deserve much gratitude for keeping the flame burning.)
That's just one argument that illustrates why the whole sport is weakened by unnecessary and illogical age restrictions. To keep up their interest, once they are past the beginner stage, young cavers need a steady supply of challenging, exciting trips, that preferably don't require them to spend many hours in a car. I remember when the Lancaster University club fresher weekends needed coaches to transport the new recruits, there were so many of them. You'd see them parked in Ingleton. On the back of that influx came many discoveries in England, and the exploration of magnificent caves such as Cueva del Agua and 56 ( - 1169 metres) in Spain. LUSS no longer exists.
Age restrictions are part of the reason for this saddening decline.
Maj
Active member
IIRC didn't University caving clubs take a significant hit when some of the Universities stopped funding them for various reasons, inc insurance worries? Since then, have some of the University clubs been built back up again? Is there currently a decline or increase in University club cavers? Just asking.
Maj.
Maj.
I think that Maj is right. Also, I believe that one thing that led to the demise of LUSS was the death of a young caver on a trip to Bar Pot in 1982. Two years previously a young woman died in Top Sink; I think that she, also, might have been on a university/college caving club trip.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Something positive for you.
Folk who really love their sport.
http://swcc-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/chilled-in-cheddar-chamber.html
Folk who really love their sport.
http://swcc-blog.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/chilled-in-cheddar-chamber.html
droid
Active member
In my experience (admittedly only a few years more recent than David's) the majority of recruits to University clubs were freshers who'd never caved before. The tutors of these freshers were the raw recruits of three years before, with a few mature students thrown in for good measure.