Advice on bats

[Trotsky]

Ant, re the bat enquiry (John here from the club).
A while ago a lady who is apparently quite a noise in the bat world took the kids and myself out to a nursery roost for Pipistrelles. We had lights and cameras and she brought audio meters an headphones so we had both an audio and visual show as well as an impromptu lecture (a fascinating and informative evening). She is hugely knowledgeable so if you ring me or PM either here or on the club site I will give you her number and I have little doubt that she will be able to give you some definitive answers.
On a lighter note, to the respondent above who was talking about bat sexing. Do your work colleagues know about this activity and is it even legal? Perhaps there are some websites around that deal with this type of thing but perhaps its better to be discreet about visiting them.

 

[Amy]

It depends much on the species. For example here, gray bats if you so much as breathe they will awake. They are extremely sensitive to being disturbed and for this - and because they hibernate in huge hibernaculums of 200,000+ - their few hibernauclums are protected. There are rare instances every few years of counts and WNS surveys for them, but this is every couple years and only one visit, and with the advent of WNS is slowing even more as to the years between skipped. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Southeastern Tricolors (formerly grouped with pips, but they aren't pips), you can pick them off the wall, weight them, take a WNS swab of nose/mouth and wings, measure them, sex them, and stick them back on the wall like velcro and they hardly woke up.

TLDR: find out what species it is there, and ask a local expert about the susceptibility of the species to awakening. If sensitive, maybe wait until summer months for the photography

 

[Ian Adams]

Rom82,

I am not sure why you are being antagonistic and whether your mis-quotes are deliberate or just in error.

It's not necessarily true that you need to be an expert to have any sort of opinion.

I very specifically did not say that.

My point was just about you dissing the expert's opinion, i.e. he told you you were likely to disturb the bats and you ignored his advice just because he was rude!

I very specifically did not say that either.  The entire caving group I was with were (still are) aware of the sensitivity of bat issues. None of us have any particular interest in bats, none of us intended to involve ourselves in bat issues and none of us were interested in looking at, pointing at, photographing (you get the point) any bats. In fact, Gethin?s earlier post serves to further my personal resolve to stay away from them (I had not considered the body heat issue).

Since the bats were flying around and having lights beamed at them as well as flash photography, I (and the other cavers) could not see that our own activities could, in any way, be detrimental to any bats that may still be underground (they were not hibernating) and since we had no interest and we all intended to avoid them ? why should we post-pone a caving trip that was already assembled under those circumstances ?  It was not that he was rude, it was that his request/demand/whatever was blatantly inequitable.

Also, interfering with bats without a license IS breaking laws!

According to Natural England and the now defunct CCW (Countryside Council for Wales) the actual offence would be (very specifically) the ?intentional interference? or ?reckless behaviour? tantamount to the same.  Since none of the caving group had even the slightest interest in the bats and we were all aware they may be present (and had all resolved to avoid them) it is hard to see how we may be committing any kind of offence. Furthermore, before we went underground we discussed the ?meeting? and we all agreed to avoid bats in any event (therefore we did not dis-regard his advice notwithstanding his rudeness).

I do not believe any of the caving group I was with were acting unreasonably and in the instance we are referring to, I do believe the bat rep was unnecessarily bullish.

On the flip side, I have also said (third time I have said this now) that we met a bat group (probably the same one DaveT met around the same time at the same place) and they were all perfectly pleasant and cordial. We chatted with smiles all around.

Ian

 

[Antwan]

Thanks guys, excellent mix of fact, fiction, and thought provoking discussion 

As it turns out, my preferred entrance was flooded out and the alternative was blocked by a mad dog. Bieng on my ownthere wasn't anyone slower than me to make the dog route safer 

Trotsky, I'll catch up with you at some  point but I don't think ill be back untill summer

 

[Big Jim]

Antwan, just read the section on Bats in Caves in Caves of the Peak District (pg 20) that myself and Pete Bush (Derbyshire Bat Group) and Helen Ball (Staffs Bat Group) wrote specifically for the publication of the book.  This was written in way as to inform cavers about the legislation that aims to aid the conservation of bat species in the hope that by following these 'guidelines' we can and will be able to go about our caving activities without a) falling foul of the law, b)causing unnecessary harm to bats and c) cause friction between cavers and bat conservationists.

Some years ago myself (Eldon PC ) and Jess Eades (TSG) both cavers but also members of Derbyshire Bat Conservation Group (DBCG) also ran (over several winters) a number of 'training' sessions for cavers to educate cavers on this subject. This was done with the backing of both the DCA and DBCG and seen as a positive step forward in building relationships between us bat huggers and cavers. Over 3 winters I think about 50-60 cavers attended one of our sessions and hopefully went away a bit more knowledgeable about bat ecology and conservation and indeed we received nothing but positive feedback after the sessions.

I know some cavers in other areas have also had the benefit of 'friendly' relationships with Bat Group members (I think Pete Burgess made some positive comments on this forum at the time) but am also aware that this is not necessarily the picture UK wide. I guess in Derbyshire it was just lucky that there were a couple of us with feet firmly in both camps that were able to provide that trustworthy interface and exchange of knowledge - I know in my early days of bat surveying I benefitted greatly from advice and support of people like Dave Webb (former DCA conservation officer) and John Barnett (PDNPA Archaeologist).

There will always be some debate as to what level of disturbance cavers cause to hibernating bats and to what the degree of impact on mortality rates potentially is and the truth is it is very hard to prove direct correlations between caving activity at hibernation sites and bat mortality or site abandonment given that there are relatively few people undertaking research and the number of variables involved.  Much will be based on anecdotal evidence and from my own experience have noticed that in caves with high numbers of visitors that bat numbers are quite low. There are many caves / mines in the stone middleton area which 'seem' ideal for bats and yet I have found relatively few bats there in comparison to the mines of the Via Gellia. Is this because stoney is a more visited caving area especially by large instructor led groups or is it that actually the subtle differences in environmental conditions in the caves/mines or indeed the surrounding area at stoney make them less suitable for bat usage.

As a caver why not just regard bats in the same way you would speliotherms and treat them as another feature of the cave to be conserved for future generations and take all the positive steps you can to avoid or minimise your impact. Most cavers will unanimously despise anyone responsible for damage to geological formations and the same should apply to those intentionally or recklessly disturbing or harming bats.

In the past I have handled bats in caves (and was licenced to do so) but this was something I did infrequently and with caution and only if there some benefit for conservation of the species to be gained ie increase in knowledge or to educate. People who attended our courses may remember me handling some bats and not others or allowing photos to be taken of some bats and not others (again a legal activity under the terms of my survey licence). We also openly admitted that, in our opinion, our bat survey activities were often more likely to cause more disturbance than that caused by a party of cavers passing through a cave but again this was justified by the fact we were gathering information and making observations to increase our knowledge of a difficult to study group of animals.

I guess the upshot is that as cavers encountering bats you are in a position that 'may' cause a disturbance to bats and 'could' lead to the death of a bats or 'could' lead to abandonment of the site but why as someone who enjoys the sport would anyone want to have this kind of negative impact in an environment we enjoy and potentially risk falling foul of the law, getting cavers a bad name and potentially see an increase in access restrictions.

Just be sensible and aware!

 

[rom82]

Ian, I get the impression you think I'm hounding you to try and make you 'admit' that you hate bats or something. No such thing, I am sure you have as much interest in seeing them protected as I do, or most other cavers for that matter.

My comment that "It's not necessarily true that you need to be an expert to have any sort of opinion" is based upon you saying "unless a person is an expert (and some are) the best the rest of us can do is offer experience and opinion" where you are implying that nonexperts only have opinions as opposed to the informed opinions of experts. I was merly saying that there are nonexperts who are in the know because they have read up on the issue and that the answers are already out there in scientific publications.

As to "he told you you were likely to disturb the bats and you ignored his advice just because he was rude!" was based upon your inital story (which seemed to focus more on personalities than the issue) and there is some interpretation in it on my behalf but I never implied it to be direct quotation.

I think ?intentional interference? and ?reckless behaviour? could very easily describe interfering with bats to photograph them. While serious cavers would, I am certain, not do this, I would not be so confident regarding college caving club freshers and 'friends of friends' who are new to caving and have little consideration for conservation.

"On the flip side, I have also said (third time I have said this now) that we met a bat group (probably the same one DaveT met around the same time at the same place) and they were all perfectly pleasant and cordial. We chatted with smiles all around."

As I said I am not trying to suggest you hate bats or bat experts!! 

 

[Ian Adams]

Thank you for clarifying the position Rom.

We are at cross purposes with ?experts? Vs. opinions/experience. I was trying to portray (I was obvious unsuccessful) that there are ?experts? who can profess to be knowledgeable although the rest of us could only proffer opinion or experience.

In my ?opinion?, a person who has a significant (and well grounded) greater knowledge than a lay person would be an ?expert? (my opinion only). I expect the ?law? would require some form of certificate, license or other paper validation. In that sense, (my opinion again) I would hold the information provided by you, Gethin and Big Jim in esteem as you have all laid down substantive provenance.

I think the most sensible comment made in this subject is this;

As a caver why not just regard bats in the same way you would speliotherms and treat them as another feature of the cave to be conserved for future generations and take all the positive steps you can to avoid or minimise your impact.

It seems to me that this is an eminently equitable solution which ought to appease cavers, bat groups and the bats themselves.



Ian

 

[Aubrey]

We cavers sometimes do things which are advantageous to bats by opening up more habitat.

When we first broke through into the main passage in Bath Swallet there was no sign of bats or bat poo below the pitch. Our breakthrough at the top of Shower Pot was through a mud choke with no airspace and obviously there was no way for the bats to get through from the upper passage where we often saw them.
During the next couple of years after the shaft was opened bats colonised the lower parts of the cave. It was not unusual for a bat to fly past when in the dug shaft above the pot and there are now lots of deposits of bat poo under their hibernating sites. Our continued digging did not deter them.

I do not know if any bats enter Bath from Rods Pot either via Purple Pot or Echo Aven, perhaps anyone who has this information could post on here.

 

[bograt]

The biggest bat colony I have ever seen was in an obscure copper mine just above Happy Valley on the Great Orme back in the early '70's, I believe it is now a show 'cave' -----!!!!!.

 

[derbyshirebats]

The section that Big Jim mentions is also reproduced on our website on our caves page: http://www.derbyshirebats.org.uk/caves.php
Cheers,
DBCG.

 

[Burt]

I  was in a cave the other day with a group of very excitable 9 year old boys. We had squeezed through a narrow passage when I turned around to check the group behind me to see a bat hanging at about elbow height. It had been nudged by at least 3 people before I could shout "mind the bat!"

It didn't bat an eyelid (pun intended!) and just stayed there hanging around. Just goes to show they are probably tougher than we think.

 

[rhychydwr1]

I  was in a cave the other day with a group of very excitable 9 year old boys. We had squeezed through a narrow passage when I turned around to check the group behind me to see a bat hanging at about elbow height. It had been nudged by at least 3 people before I could shout "mind the bat!"

It didn't bat an eyelid (pun intended!) and just stayed there hanging around. Just goes to show they are probably tougher than we think.

" tougher than we think"  I agree. Although I have not seen bats in Goatchurch for some years now.