Backdoor Box Mine

[cap n chris]

Thanks for the background Popeass1.

Obviously without having full details it's not possible to see how things will pan out for sure but ballpark my hunch is they'll get nowhere with it. It's perhaps worth pointing out that 'no-win, no-fee' is a myth - if you lose, you've still got to pay associated costs (but not legal ones incurred on your side) of both sides - which can easily be into five figures - and if it's a chav this will ruin them, either in terms of creditworthiness or any paltry assets they have (tv, car etc.); there's only no LEGAL fee. If you win,... the legal fee is a significantly greater chunk than you'd normally pay if you pursued a claim without engaging the services of a 'n-w, n-f' outfit. It is more accurate to say it's 'no win, no legal fee'... there are still fees to pay. Check it out.

They certainly have no case against the landowner; they might have a case against a leader if they have written assurances that it's a safe thing to do, all above board etc.. Can't see how there's any recourse to the Quarrymans, either. Best guess is they're a chancer who really hasn't a clue what they've got themselves into, both before and after. Perhaps a harsh lesson in reality will be just the ticket.

 

[Minion]

Slightly off topic but are there any access guidance for Box? Party size etc.? I can't seem to find much online.

Is there an accepted best practice with regards to party size, call out arrangements etc.?

Cheers

 

[Badlad]

The BMC Risk, Liability and Outdoor Adventure conference took place a few years ago.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcs-risk-liability--outdoor-adventure-conference-an-overview

One of the presentations was from a personal injury lawyer and was summarised thus?

Rupert Davies, Personal Injury Lawyer ? Rupert outlined the process you would follow in order to take a case to court.  With cases concerning risk and risk taking, the law is generally on the side of the landowner / occupier. Rupert explained however, that the chance of a claim succeeding in court (for outdoor recreation) is low. He went on to explain that under the Compensations Act 2006, courts have a responsibility to consider whether a claim would prevent a legitimate activity from continuing (but that they are ?courts of evidence, not courts of truth?).

Rupert explained how funding / compensation is a real driver for litigation; the ?no win, no fee? culture (also known as the conditional fee agreement). However, claims will only be taken forward if there is more than a 50% chance of a case succeeding. Claims need to come forward within three years of the incident, have to be acknowledge and investigated within three months of receiving the claim, and if the claim is refuted, the decision then has to be made whether to go to court.  If the case does go to court, the landowner / occupier has a maximum of five months to prepare their defence.  It is important to get witness statements and documentation as soon as an incident occurs.

 

[ChrisJC]

Has this legal action affected access yet?, e.g. the landowner at Backdoor restricting access? What is the general feeling?, that it will blow over?, or that suddenly Box will become inaccessible?

Is Jacks or Lady Hamiltons 'out of scope'? or could they be affected too?

Chris.

 

[popeass1]

New warning signs have been put up on the trees around the backdoor, and a geocache report indicated that the poster was told by pub staff that free access may be lost in the not so distant future.

I agree that the claimant doesn't really seem to have much chance of getting anywhere with their claim, as they willingly entered somewhere that had signs warning them not to. But there may still be repercussions, only time will tell?

 

[cap n chris]

Slightly off topic but are there any access guidance for Box?

Item 10.3 in minutes, link below.

The understanding was that the landowner was denying any authorised access to the site, signs saying 'keep out' would reinforce this and anyone asking for permission to visit would be told to go away. Access to the site was denied.

The barriers to entry could be temporarily side-stepped by use of a key to unsecure the perimeter; such access would be unauthorised but probably likely to go unchallenged. The landowner and/or EN could secure the site on a whim whensoever they choose subject to any problems with the site cropping up.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiuic-p88rKAhVM1xQKHQl1CbMQFggmMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcscc.org.uk%2Fwiki%2Flib%2Fexe%2Ffetch.php%3Fid%3Ddocuments%253Astart%26cache%3Dcache%26media%3Ddocuments%3Acscc_2005.12.03_minutes.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE6iFaXVZniNuAn0r5yhYikuZICDg&sig2=AHWuE8jo5WHWvnoJMTMDFA

Is there an accepted best practice with regards to party size, call out arrangements etc.?

... nothing relevant re: party size, call out etc. because, as stated above, all access to Box is unauthorised/trespass.

 

[andrewmcleod]

"No one has ever sued for damages like this before in the UK."

That might be true in the very specific case of caving/mine exploration, but I'm sure plenty of equivalent things have been sued for. See the already posted case. There was another case where a person did something silly in a bouldering gym (after signing themselves in as either an experienced member or under the supervision of an experienced member) and sadly ended up tetraplegic.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=44786
Even though the judge had found some fault with signage at the centre, the injured boulderer still lost the case (albeit on appeal). And this is in a gym designed for bouldering where bouldering led to an injury; in a wild cave or mine there will be much less liability and much less expectation on the landowner to make things 'safe'.

There are several other similar cases I think.

 

[boomtown1]

Just use jacks entrance !
a bit further to navigate but that makes it more fun
At least the entrance is out of the way and doesn't really bother anyone
Barring that use lady Hamiltons in the same area , it would be nice to see the iPhone torch airmax crew enter there in future !

 

[crickleymal]

Last time I went down (2 years or so ago) Lady Hamiltons was shut. There was a grill but no gate.

 

[boomtown1]

The lady is wide open
Has been for a while

 

[royfellows]

Just use jacks entrance !
a bit further to navigate but that makes it more fun
At least the entrance is out of the way and doesn't really bother anyone
Barring that use lady Hamiltons in the same area , it would be nice to see the iPhone torch airmax crew enter there in future !

It is more fun!
I always use that entrance and come out the same way.
I have all the waypoints in memory, the black horse,  the white ghost, and who was Kerry Hall, I hope they lived happy ever after.


Oh, and not to forget on the VS route the invitation, presumably directed to ladies, for one to expose a certain part of ones anatomy

 

[ChrisJC]

I will use Jacks if I have to, but I want to visit Cathedral, the Daleks and Crane Country to take some photos, and doing that trip from Jacks will take a lot longer than doing it from Backdoor.

Chris.

 

[boomtown1]

I will use Jacks if I have to, but I want to visit Cathedral, the Daleks and Crane Country to take some photos, and doing that trip from Jacks will take a lot longer
Chris.

just go down the ladder if your in a rush, it's not always shut at the top

 

[ChrisJC]

What is the latest on this?, is access still OK via Backdoor?

Chris.

 

[Brains]

AFAIK access is still ok, but if you are in a large group please keep the noise down, and maybe break down in to groups of 4 for the walk to / from tarmac to reduce to a minimum any potential nuisance to the neighbour

 

[ChrisJC]

I can report that access is OK. There are a large number of signs saying keep out, dangerous mines etc etc, but if one overlooks those, nothing appears to have changed.

I also met two geocaching parties and another group (at a distance) who appeared to be without helmets....?!

Chris.

 

[NewStuff]

I can report that access is OK. There are a large number of signs saying keep out, dangerous mines etc etc, but if one overlooks those, nothing appears to have changed.

I also met two geocaching parties and another group (at a distance) who appeared to be without helmets....?!

Chris.

I know someone that has dealings with those Geocache things in that neck of the woods (I think). I'll prod him and see if anything can be done.

 

[JestersMagpie]

Hi, I'm the owner of some geocaches in Box and every one lists equipment needed including helmet, head torch, spare torch etc and as far as I know every geocacher follows those guidelines. If I found they hadn't I personally would delete their logs and report them to geocaching moderators.
But there is another group called opencaching who aren't as strict and I have nothing to do with them. But from what I've heard most of the cachers do follow normal guidelines.
I know there are groups that visit Box under experienced supervision as I've met some. The leader in full kit, his flock carrying torches with no helmets or head torches and some even wearing sandals!
It is surprising who you meet underground, take one group I met. One man carrying a large holdall, a girl wearing skin tight leggings and a low top and another man carrying a riding crop. I never did find what they were doing but I bet it was fun

 

[dave_the_cave]

It is definitely still accessible if you have the hex key.

A large group of  us (3 from Bath geological socity) plus some of our regulars visited on saturday morning-afternoon into Backdoor with our own key. I took pity on a group who tried and failed to get a key from the quarrymans.
So I gave them my hex key.

 

[ChrisJC]

I will use Jacks if I have to, but I want to visit Cathedral, the Daleks and Crane Country to take some photos, and doing that trip from Jacks will take a lot longer
Chris.

just go down the ladder if your in a rush, it's not always shut at the top

I investigated this from the inside - I climbed the stone staircase and then the iron ladder to nearly the top. It didn't look to me like the cap could be opened.....?

Chris.