Ballot Results

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
The following comments are purely my personal opinion :)

It's much easier to agree that something is bad and should be changed than to agree on _what_ should be changed. Hence it is not surprising that last year's motion had a clear majority, whereas all three options this year had lesser support.

There was a consultation on Section 10.1 prior to a number of meetings where it was discussed at the Constitution and Operations Working Group. The consultation was largely to find out what the hell Section 10.1 actually meant (or at least what people thought it meant, which is much the same thing really). Only one regional council, the CSCC, responded at this time. No responses gave any suggestions of new wording. What the consultation really showed was that there was significant disagreement about what it meant, whether it was good and what should be done with it. No single form of words was going to please everybody.

This wasn't an exercise in pushing some desired outcome; it was a genuine attempt to present the membership with a set of options which reflected the range of opinions they held.

In my _personal_ option, by far the best option was to dump it entirely. I am a strong believer that any restrictive clauses in a constitution should be very specific and clear, which this is not. I would also like to see a more compact constitution. Therefore, not presenting an option to remove it entirely (2A) would have been a missed opportunity.

However, only presenting an option to remove it entirely would not have been suggesting a 'new form of words', and would be ignoring the responses of all the people who felt it was important. So we also included a cut-down option where only part of it was included (this was, I believe, the only explicit suggestion actually made by anyone to me although I could have forgotten some). Hence option 2B.

Finally, some sort of compromise option was needed or we would just be ignoring a significant fraction of the responses. Unfortunately, the problem is that Section 10.1 is terribly vague but has all this additional baggage. Consequently, it is not possible to state exactly what it means, and therefore it is very hard to even rewrite it without potentially changing it completely, let alone try and reach some compromise. Thus 2C was spawned out; a horrific mishmash of compromise that takes far too many words to try and say some of what Section 10.1 was saying, but with extra arbitrary conditions. I think it was pretty awful, but it was the best I could do - in fact I was going to withdraw it at the meeting I first presented it, but we decided to keep it anyway. Despite writing and proposing it, I actually voted against it on principle (and then pointed out when the results were initially released that it had in fact _not_ passed, although I would of course have done this anyway). It's therefore ironic that it did the best out of the three options - apparently people like a wishy-washy compromise with too many words in it...

What I would point out though is that a majority of voters wanted to remove Section 10.1 entirely. They failed to pass the constitutional threshold of 70%, but the majority of members are in favour. Thus, it probably shouldn't be seen as some sacred principle of the BCA delivered by the members... it is a horrifically ambiguous clause, and AGMs and the membership could interpret it in all sorts of ways (as is their right).

Where to go from here? Well, I am confident we have fulfilled the requirement from the 2020 AGM and can now waste no more time on it. I don't think Section 10.1 really does anything significant, although I respectfully acknowledge others would disagree. It remains in the constitution, but I think the majority vote to remove it is a vote of no confidence in the principle it (attempts) to state. And any member who can actually think of anything better to replace it can submit something to the 2022 AGM (please do)...
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Andrew - what now for constitutional reform.  When Mad Phil was around he assured me (and others) that your group was going to rewrite the whole constitution within a year.  I always thought that was optimistic but is that still the aim?  The argument was that continually proposing tweaks and changes each year is a waste of resources when everyone seems to agree that wholesale changes are required.  As you say something much shorter and concise is really needed.  It is probably four years or more since constitutional change groups were first established by BCA but to date the only changes proposed have been the piecemeal ones each year.  What's the plan?
 

JoshW

Well-known member
Badlad said:
Andrew - what now for constitutional reform.  When Mad Phil was around he assured me (and others) that your group was going to rewrite the whole constitution within a year.  I always thought that was optimistic but is that still the aim?  The argument was that continually proposing tweaks and changes each year is a waste of resources when everyone seems to agree that wholesale changes are required.  As you say something much shorter and concise is really needed.  It is probably four years or more since constitutional change groups were first established by BCA but to date the only changes proposed have been the piecemeal ones each year.  What's the plan?

Assume that the direction this group and the BCA takes as a whole will be dictated by Russell, the new chair and member of the COG
 

PeteHall

Moderator
Badlad said:
but what if they had all passed?  That would have caused an equal problem.
Had they all passed, the vote with the highest support was to be carried was it not?

aricooperdavis said:
I genuinely think a ranked choice would have been easier for voters, and the results more informative, than what we used.
Had there been a ranked choice, obviously the option to keep it unchanged would have been needed. Perhaps it should have been included anyway, effectively a motion to overturn the previous year's vote to change 10.1?  :confused:

In terms of where to go from here, my personal view would be that the 2020 vote was complied with, and all options in the 2021 vote failed, so there is no obligation to do anything else with it. That might seem like a bit of an anti-climax and perhaps someone wants to bring it up again, but even if they don't, I think it is still not a bad result. 10.1 stays in the constitution, but BCA are now aware that it is not widely supported, therefore this can be taken into consideration when considering how to interpret it, if a contentious issue ever comes up again. After all, it is clearly open to interpretation and the membership have given some guidance on how they think it should be interpreted. That in itself is perhaps a worthwhile result.
 

Jenny P

Active member
10.1 is so unclear that I suspect people will have voted on what they thought it meant - but how they interpreted it may not have been the interpretation others used in their vote.

It's a mess and IMHO the rest of section 10 is not much better as it's muddled and seems to addressing two different issues at the same time.

I think the group did their best in attempting to wade through the morass on 10.1 although, thinking about it with hindsight (always a wonderful thing) it might have been better to ask people to rank the choices: scrap altogether, leave it alone as is, go for a complete re-write.

However, I think PeteHall has summed it up when he suggests that
BCA are now aware that it is not widely supported, therefore this can be taken into consideration when considering how to interpret it, if a contentious issue ever comes up again.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
JoshW said:
Badlad said:
Andrew - what now for constitutional reform.  When Mad Phil was around he assured me (and others) that your group was going to rewrite the whole constitution within a year.  I always thought that was optimistic but is that still the aim?  The argument was that continually proposing tweaks and changes each year is a waste of resources when everyone seems to agree that wholesale changes are required.  As you say something much shorter and concise is really needed.  It is probably four years or more since constitutional change groups were first established by BCA but to date the only changes proposed have been the piecemeal ones each year.  What's the plan?

Assume that the direction this group and the BCA takes as a whole will be dictated by Russell, the new chair and member of the COG

I may be wrong but I think it is the council who decide such matters - in line with the constitution and direction from any AGM of course.  From the constitution,

The National Council shall have the power to deal with matters concerning the national interests of the Association, within the terms of reference given to it by the Association. It shall be bound by the Aims and by the Constitution of the Association.

The Executive Committee shall operate under the direction of and shall report to the National Council. It shall regulate its own business within the constraints of the Association?s ?Manual of Operations?.
 

ChrisJC

Well-known member
JoshW said:
Assume that the direction this group and the BCA takes as a whole will be dictated by Russell, the new chair and member of the COG

Let's hope that nobody mistakes him for a 4 legged item of furniture at the next meeting!  :eek: :LOL:

Chris.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Jenny P said:
[...]thinking about it with hindsight (always a wonderful thing) it might have been better to ask people to rank the choices: scrap altogether, leave it alone as is, go for a complete re-write.

There were probably better ways to do it, but how do you tally that with the requirement to get 70% for constitutional changes?

You could have had a poll before the AGM to decide the preferred option, and then approve it in the online ballot, but that would mean organizing a separate ballot which would be quite impractical and extra faff.
You could hold the poll in the online ballot, but then you'd have to either have a complicated motion to have a second online ballot which was pre-approved for constitutional change, or a special general meeting, or wait until the next AGM to approve the decision.
You could have a motion to approve the results of the ranking poll, and a ranking poll in the same AGM, but then you'd be asking people to approve a constitutional change when they didn't know what the actual change would be...

Hence the slightly weird solution. Possibly it could have been phrased in a more straightforward way, but then the voting site would have had to be re-written to deal with non-yes/no ballots! :p
 

Jenny P

Active member
andrewmc said:
Jenny P said:
[...]thinking about it with hindsight (always a wonderful thing) it might have been better to ask people to rank the choices: scrap altogether, leave it alone as is, go for a complete re-write.

There were probably better ways to do it, but how do you tally that with the requirement to get 70% for constitutional changes?

Hence the slightly weird solution. Possibly it could have been phrased in a more straightforward way, but then the voting site would have had to be re-written to deal with non-yes/no ballots! :p

Exactly.

I think we probably did the best we could in a fairly impossible situation. Given that there were those who wanted several different solutions, it simply wasn't possible to set this up to require a yes/no response.

If BCA do decide to visit this again they will now be aware of just how difficult this one is.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Andrew - the 2020 AGM proposal put forward by me stated,

"This motion instructs council to consider a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution taking into account the above and to agree those words at council by majority vote in time to present them as a constitutional change to the 2021 BCA AGM."

It looks like council didn't check on what they were required to do.  It was council who should have voted to put one proposal forward and allow the AGM to vote on that.
 

JoshW

Well-known member
In fairness there?s nothing in the proposal saying only one set of wording should be brought forwards to the AGM
 
nearlywhite said:
Thought I had it in the bag  :-[ No in all seriousness thanks to all those who voted for me, 46% of the vote isn't too shabby.

While I'm sad to have lost, a little embarrassed and disappointed, I'm surprised at how much I had overestimated my support. That probably reflects how divided caving is at the moment, kind of appropriate to be stuck in an echo chamber I guess. I've got a fair amount to reflect on and some time away from council can only be good for my sanity. Good luck to the new (old?) team and I hope they find the stability promised.

Here's to being the first proper loser in BCA history  :beer:

Commiserations to Rostam as the ?first proper loser in BCA history?; fortunately, I did not overestimate my support and worked my socks off to win, a competitive streak I have found in myself. It is a trait I will pursue in continuing to work as BCA Chair for the benefit of the British caving community in its entirety with the conviction to apply my style of chairing.
I disagree that the vote reflects how divided caving is at the moment, I think it came down to a straightforward question of how many cavers did I, or my friends and acquaintances know, to influence the vote rather than the politics of the day; the personal touch! Dave Rose in summarising the ?hustings? podcasts commented on how similar the two of us came across with our replies to the questions put to us.
So, I would like to lay to rest the idea that British Caving is divided, it ain?t but a bit like ?fake? news, keep repeating it often enough and some of it will stick. My advice is to ignore it and any of the ?muck raking? from the past, the future is bright, the past is behind us; there is a great wide world of positives out there which we need to embrace.
At the end of the day, it is all about caving which is our common thread and a very strong one at that; once a caver, always a caver with all the attributes that bestows on an individual, resilience, fortitude, stoicism and a whole lot more creating a strong sense of adventure. We all share these traits, there are no divisions in caving.
You need look no further than the recent Three Counties Grand Traverse, what an achievement; not a dissenting voice amongst 50 or so cavers on the day plus all those involved in the run up to the attempt beforehand, all united in a common goal, a potent ?tour de force? demonstrating the best of British caving and what we can achieve united.
To reinforce my message, I take issue with Rostam on the matter of ?division? but I wish him well in the future and thank him for his service to BCA and the caving community at large which I promise to serve to the best of my ability.
Kind Regards
Russell Myers
Chair
British Caving Association
 

Jenny P

Active member
Badlad said:
Andrew - the 2020 AGM proposal put forward by me stated,

"This motion instructs council to consider a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution taking into account the above and to agree those words at council by majority vote in time to present them as a constitutional change to the 2021 BCA AGM."

It looks like council didn't check on what they were required to do.  It was council who should have voted to put one proposal forward and allow the AGM to vote on that.

It would, of course, have been perfectly possible for council to have agreed a new form of words for section 10.1 and presented them as a constitutional change to the 2021 AGM.

If council had done so and the constutional change had been rejected by the ballot, who would you then have blamed for not achieving the outcome you clearly wanted?

It was precisely because it was impossible to agree on a new form of words for 10.1, or even whether a new form of words was wanted, that we have ended up in the situation we have done.

Which is why I said earlier:
Exactly.
I think we probably did the best we could in a fairly impossible situation. Given that there were those who wanted several different solutions, it simply wasn't possible to set this up to require a yes/no response.

If BCA do decide to visit this again they will now be aware of just how difficult this one is.

 

Ian Ball

Well-known member
Congrats Russell, enjoy your time in office. 

That motion from Badlad seems to suggest removal was not an option?  :-\

Was the NCA and such predecessors equally so difficult?  I think I can guess the answer!





 

BradW

Member
Well done, Russell. We all need a chair that believes that what unites us is far more important than what divides us.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Badlad said:
Andrew - the 2020 AGM proposal put forward by me stated,

"This motion instructs council to consider a new form of words for section 10.1 of the BCA constitution taking into account the above and to agree those words at council by majority vote in time to present them as a constitutional change to the 2021 BCA AGM."

I don't think Council can actually make AGM proposals?

A new form of words was developed by a working group of Council. It was approved by majority vote at a Council meeting. That new form of words was then submitted as a proposal to the AGM, where it gained a majority but (narrowly) failed to gain the 70% required. The fact that two other proposals were also submitted doesn't invalidate that.
 

badger

Active member
I agree with Jenny regarding 10.1. I also think what ever words BCA could have put forward, I think one group of cavers somewhere in the country would not have agreed as it did not say what they wanted it to say. If the BCA members feel that strongly it can be put forward again for the membership to instruct council to go away and think again.

As for Chair, I would have been happy for either Russell or Rostam, I think they both have strengths and weakness's, but believe they both wanted BCA to grow and support British cavers.

I am sorry to see Rostam resign (assuming Rostam is going through with his statement from the interviews) as Rostam I think was a good P&I officer.

I am also sad to see Will resign, due to his work commitments, as C&A was working very well, hopefully someone will come forward who has as much passion for C&A that Will showed.
 

Badlad

Administrator
Staff member
Quoting Russell
You need look no further than the recent Three Counties Grand Traverse, what an achievement; not a dissenting voice amongst 50 or so cavers on the day plus all those involved in the run up to the attempt beforehand, all united in a common goal, a potent ?tour de force? demonstrating the best of British caving and what we can achieve united.

I agree totally with this.  I have been involved in many, many projects and expeditions where cavers have worked brilliantly together to achieve a goal.  However those same 50 or so cavers would probably not agree on an issue of cave politics, access, conservation, training, anchor policy, constitution changes etc and that is where the challenge for BCA lies.  This is not new as Bob Mehew tells me there were enormous issues and differences in just bringing BCA about in the first place (from NCA) and that is why the whole format and constitution of the organisation is a bit of a bodge up.  In my experience BCA is just fine when it doesn't really do anything.  If there is not complete consensus then kick the issue down the road indefinitely, that is one way you can operate.  As soon as change, modernisation or, heaven forbid, an issue like CRoW, comes about then you tend to find very divisive opinion and big problems pushing forward even with large democratic support.  Cavers come from all parts of society so I guess they reflect differences we find in our wider lives.

Anyway good luck
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
mikem said:
Umm, members voted for the removal of P&I position...

P&I will become a Group, still operating with a Chair and a fixed role set by BCA Council, but without a vote on council.

If anyone would like to volunteer for either the P&I or IT groups I'd love to hear from you ;)
 
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