BCA AGM 2021

[Cavematt]

I'm not saying I disagree that 14 days is enough in most situations. I have no real objections to 14 days in concept.

My observation is that the BCA's constitution says 'approximately 30 days' and a decision seems to have been made to ignore this for no good reason (unless you accept 14 days is approximately 30 days, which I think is a hard sell).

Just saying 'we're looking to change that' does not instantly mean you don't still have to do it!

I have watched one caving organisation nearly fail completely after taking a too relaxed attitude to its constitution several years ago, and separately, I have seen (as Badlad suggests) far more tenuous constitutional deviations than this used in BCA to attempt to overturn the outcomes of an AGM.

It therefore just seems strange to take this course of action for the sake of two more weeks to tick the necessary boxes.

The BCA is moving in very much the right direction at the moment, with new IT systems to help facilitate membership and communication on the horizon, enthusiastic people getting involved, and a potentially game-changing access court case ongoing. Many of the earlier obstacles to these things happening have now been removed. I really hope those driving these changes have a much easier ride than I did. Although the situation we were in a few years ago seems to have calmed down now thanks to departure of several people (myself included), it will only take a few people to potentially derail progress, and their work is made much simpler when BCA does not follow its own rulebook without good reason.

Does 14 days versus 30 days really matter? Probably not. It is more the principle of the situation that is important here.

Just consider this a word of caution rather than a moan... I will be voting on day one

 

[aricooperdavis]

I think I'm correct in sayng that the 14-day period for voting would start from when the actual voting system goes online, which you expect to take maybe a couple of days to organise after the AGM has finished. 

Hi Jenny,
The online ballot will open at midnight following the AGM. We've already published the dates which you can find here.
However, don't feel like you need to set an alarm on your phone - you should receive an email with details about how and when to vote once the AGM has finished.
All the best,
Ari

 

[Jenny P]

I think I'm correct in sayng that the 14-day period for voting would start from when the actual voting system goes online, which you expect to take maybe a couple of days to organise after the AGM has finished. 

Hi Jenny,
The online ballot will open at midnight following the AGM. We've already published the dates which you can find here.
However, don't feel like you need to set an alarm on your phone - you should receive an email with details about how and when to vote once the AGM has finished.
All the best,
Ari

Indeed Ari, I'd forgotten just how efficient you IT people are 

I'd assumed that it might take a couple of days to get it all sorted after the event but clearly you're way ahead of me.  I'll be seriously impressed if you really can crack this by the same evening.

All the best,
Jenny

 

[aricooperdavis]

I'll be seriously impressed if you really can crack this by the same evening.

So will I! We can pre-prepare all the elections, motions, and email templates in advance, so it's just a matter of getting up-to-date email lists and adding any motions from the floor. I've run a couple of small scale tests, so it's just a matter of firmly crossing fingers...

 

[BCA Chair]

A number of representations about the voting period have been received from the membership, pointing out concerns that whilst the current Constitution refers to this voting period being "approximately" 30 days, reducing it to 14 days is stretching the point and could be construed as unconstitutional. The argument would revolve around what "approximately" means.

The Executive Committee are keen to see the voting period not dragging on but in responding to the members' concerns, agreed unanimously, to extend the voting period to 21 days i.e. ending at midnight on Sunday 31st October. This was circulated round Council prior to this announcement and raised no concerns.

Voting will open at midnight on Sunday 10th and close at midnight on Sunday 31st October. Members should receive an email with a voting token but if you haven't received this by midnight on 10th October please contact the Returning Officer: returning-officer@british-caving.org.uk

Further details about the AGM here: https://british-caving.org.uk/agm-2021/

Russell Myers
Acting Chair
BCA

 

[Ian Ball]

14 is better.

 

[Badlad]

I think I am right in saying that the term "approximately 30 days" was used so that minor adjustments could be made to the voting period, particularly concerning how the end day fell.  Perhaps extending it from a Friday to a Sunday or vica versa.

The precedence was being set of enacting a proposed constitutional change before it had even been voted upon.  Even worse, it was a change which affected that very voting.  What a mess could ensue if the vote failed to support it or complaints were received afterwards.  I am still not convinced 21 is approximately 30 either but at least this change is some recognition of error.

I hope it goes well, good luck.

 

[Ian Ball]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't! 

 

[JoshW]

I note that Nige Atkins stood from the floor as individual rep. I was unable to attend the AGM due to a prior engagement, so didn't get a chance to hear his election statement.

Is anyone who was present able to give a brief synopsis.

Standing for one of these positions, I ensured that I had a statement 'out there' with my intentions, and history as a rep. Would be good to know if Nigel did the same.

 

[Jenny P]

Worth noting that there are still two Group Member reps. positions vacant so it would be good if volunteers for those positions made themselves known to the Secretary as it's always possible to co-opt them at the next Council Meeting.

 

[JoshW]

Worth noting that there are still two Group Member reps. positions vacant so it would be good if volunteers for those positions made themselves known to the Secretary as it's always possible to co-opt them at the next Council Meeting.

*capable volunteers

I'm quite in favour of leaving gaps on council if there are no suitable volunteers. Particularly for group/individual rep roles where there's not direct job requirements.

I think it's quite telling though that there was big uproar from certain segments of the caving community at the removal of the club votes, but nobody willing to step up to council to represent clubs. That or they believe that clubs are already well represented enough by their regional bodies?

 

[Ian Ball]

facebook live stream is that still available?

 

[moorfurlong]

I note that Nige Atkins stood from the floor as individual rep. I was unable to attend the AGM due to a prior engagement, so didn't get a chance to hear his election statement.

Is anyone who was present able to give a brief synopsis.

Standing for one of these positions, I ensured that I had a statement 'out there' with my intentions, and history as a rep. Would be good to know if Nigel did the same.

The chair at the meeting asked the floor if anyone attending the AGM ( i.e those that had registered ) would like to put themselves forward for a variety of positions. One of these being individual rep. Nigel responded to that and offered. That was then 1/2nd by others at the AGM. Therefore, that can only be a great thing for BCA, volunteers offering their free time to support. Go to 57-105mins.

 

[JoshW]

facebook live stream is that still available?

Great shout Ian. Have managed to find it.

For anyone wanting to know the answer to my initial query - there's no kind of election statement in there, and not one on the voting form. I'm therefore not entirely sure what Nigel stands for, what he intends to do with the role or why he's running for it. A little confused this wasn't asked for at the point of standing from the floor, but not sure whether that's usual or not - having not attended an AGM in person (yet or hopefully ever they sound a right bore).

Thanks Moorfurlong for pointing towards the exact timings, super helpful

 

[Ian Ball]

Isn't there a Individual members rep job description?

 

[JoshW]

Isn't there a Individual members rep job description?

Interesting you should ask Ian.

https://manual.british-caving.org.uk/wiki/doku.php?id=officer_information:individual&s[]

I believe this is where it should be contained ^.

I can't find an equivalent page for the group reps.

some wording from the council page which you can interpret at will:

Group Representatives: Up to four representatives of groups/clubs (two-year terms). Current post-holders are listed on the website contacts page.

Individual Member Representatives: Up to four representatives of individual members (two-year terms). Current post-holders are listed on the website contacts page.

 

[Ian Ball]

It's hard work the BCA.

 

[Jenny P]

In answer to Josh's query posted earlier today re. "standing from the floor".

It is a standard feature of AGMs to have a facility of being able to "stand from the floor" if a Committee/Council position is left vacant at the end of a meeting and no-one has been formally nominated in writing beforehand to fill it.  It is always assumed that the person who volunteers understands what is involved and is prepared to carry out those duties.  Since the decision is taken during the time of the meeting only if a position remains vacant at what would otherwise be the end of the meeting, the person volunteering would not be expected to provide an election statement at the time of offering.  The fact that the offer to stand is accepted by the Chairman and that two people are prepared to propose and second the volunteer in good faith is sufficient.

There is the additional safeguard built into the Constitution, which was actually formally proposed earlier in the meeting as an amendment to 6.1:  "... subject to a vote of approval by the individual membership ..." which puts into the Constitution something which was already accepted as the standard procedure.

Being able to understand how a formal AGM works is an important issue and, though it might be considered that "... they sound a right bore ...", it does help to produce sensible results rather than just having a free-for-all with no rules laid down.

 

[JoshW]

It is always assumed that the person who volunteers understands what is involved and is prepared to carry out those duties

and assumption is the mother of all...

Thanks for the clarification though Jenny, it would just seem prudent that anyone wanting to stand for a role would have some sort of statement saying their intentions. Otherwise the vote of approval by the membership might not mean much if you don't know the individual personally.