bca meeting 25/3 /2017

[Stuart France]

The following data can be gleaned from the latest accounts of the Pathfinder group of companies filed at Companies House.  I am not an accountant, but I was in school on the day that negative numbers were explained.

Fathfinder Systems Ltd is a dormant company with fixed assets of ?100K believed to represent the notional value of bespoke software it owns, plus current assets of ?20K.  On the negative side its creditors ?120K which leaves the capital and reserves at ?121 (that's pounds not thousands - it buys two tanks of petrol).

Blah D Blah Design Ltd has fixed assets of ?6K, stock ?16K, debtors owe it ?326K, and it has ?1 in cash or in the bank (this buys two second class postage stamps).  Creditors are shown at ?295K, which leaves net assets of ?53K.  This is the company that has entered into a non-trading Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) according to media reports.

Tahdah Verified Ltd has fixed assets of ?4K, current assets ?20K, creditors ?210K.  Net assets stand at minus ?186K, capital and reserves are minus ?236K.  The company's accounts don't show what is in the bank.  It has extended its accounting period (thus postponed filing its accounts) twice.  This is the company that BCA has been thinking of dealing with.

Combine these companies' reserves or net worth and the answer comes to less than nothing.

It seems all the people on BCA Executive are current or former directors of companies.  How can experienced people allow themselves to be persuaded to recommend investing BCA funds, and in so doing hazard the future of BCA Cave Leader/Instructor training, on such as this?

I suggest a new thread to discuss BCA cave instructor training.  It is in a mess, but it is a redeemable mess as the number of LCLs and CICs is modest.  It doesn't need big bucks to sort out, but it does need the various factions to embrace goodwill and an outbreak of common sense.

 

[alastairgott]

How can experienced people allow themselves to be persuaded to recommend investing BCA funds, and in so doing hazard the future of BCA Cave Leader/Instructor training, on such as this?

I don't think it's unusual for companies to "sail close to the wind". clearly in this case it was too close, as the news articles have pointed out. with foresight it was touch and go, with 20/20 hindsight it would have been a car crash.

It's only when you know that they must have had a sizeable bank overdraft (probably 10's-100's of thousands) that you know it was a non starter.
But who knew? they could have sold the lot to another (bigger) company and all would have been fine.

 

[Stuart France]

With all due respect, I think you ought to delve a little deeper.  Think raising further cash from new shareholders: that's a form of selling a company.  Think borrowing from banks secured by debenture where the bank can seize anything and everything if repayments are defaulted or the bank decides to foreclose.

You're an expert on selling a small company?  Normal buyers value a company on sustainable profit, return on capital employed, share price to EBITDA, ability to generate free cash to pay one's way in the world and pay sustained or growing dividends to shareholders.  There's earnings, and then there's quality earnings: it's nice to have a load of loyal clients that will definitely pay you, ideally on time, and not go out of business themselves.

The accounts suggest a deficit of hundreds of thousands of pounds and growing.  How is this ever going to turn good when the clients have only the financial strength of BCA Training or Mountain Training?  How many sports governing body training organisations are there out there as potential clients, and is the likely annual profit generated from each one going to fix the deficit, assuming there is some profit?

It doesn't add up.  It never did.  Robin Weare hoisted enough red flags.  Nobody listened to him.

 

[Les W]

It doesn't add up.  It never did.  Robin Weare hoisted enough red flags.  Nobody listened to him.

That's not entirely true Stuart, quite a few people listened to him...

 

[Badlad]

Let's just say a lucky escape.  QMS urgently needs a new system which was the unfortunate driving force here.  Sadly back to square one with no option quite as tantalising as the Tadaha scheme left on the table.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Sadly back to square one with no option quite as tantalising as the Tadaha scheme left on the table.

Not quite true.  My understanding was that Tahdah was identified a long while ago as a suitable product.  But following concerns expressed in & out side Council, a User Specification was produced within BCA for the processes required to serve the LCMLA and CIC award schemes.  Two systems were tested against it, being Tahdah and Northbridge.  Both meet the Spec but I understood that all those involved agreed Tahdah was better. 

However the fly in the ointment was the financial stability question.  I understood that that question was resolved a couple of weeks ago.  Hence Andy's report to the just gone October Council meeting stating "After very careful consideration and investigation, Tahdah has been appointed as provider of the training database, although the contract has not yet been signed."  So perhaps Tahdah still lives despite the fate of a Blah D Blah.  And I understood Northbridge remains an option.

From my (ex) vantage point, although it took a lot of effort and debate, it did appear to me that the task had been conducted in a prudent manner albeit not time efficiently.

 

[Spike]

Is the User Specification available anywhere Bob? I couldn't find it in any of the recent BCA minutes...

 

[mattwire]

The spec that was produced following my insistence at the March Meeting can be found here (I just uploaded it): http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/doku.php?id=about:documents:council_meetings:start

In view of this latest news I feel completely vindicated about my reservations with Tahdah.  Had I not insisted on a spec being drawn up and a proper process being followed we could now be in a situation where contracts had been signed and members money lost.  The product itself looked good, but the public accounts have always looked extremely dodgy.

 

[nickwilliams]

It needs to be pointed out that the company which has gone into administration is Blah-d-Blah, not Tahdah Verified Ltd, who are the company which BCA was negotiating with. Tahdah's service is still operational.

Robin Weare (BCA Treasurer) has spent a considerable amount of time looking at the financial relationships behind Tahdah. He is currently away on an expedition and so no further progress is going to be made on this until he returns in November.

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Surely the BCA wouldn't even entertain using a company run by the same director.......... Run in a similar fashion.......... Would they? :spank:

 

[mattwire]

Surely the BCA wouldn't even entertain using a company run by the same director.......... Run in a similar fashion.......... Would they? :spank:

One would certainly hope not, especially when there's a perfectly good alternative solution on the table...

The SOLE director of Tahdah / Blah d Blah / Pathfinder is Neil Rylance (who somehow appears as two people at companies house):
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/SPZSt9fhRN4oBNfBuKz0-vqmrG0/appointments
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/vSuviH5Ly01UkkBW-khft6J32q8/appointments

Read and make your own mind up.  I certainly have.

 

[cap n chris]

This place appears to be akin to an online lynch mob, almost entirely devoid of debate any longer. Whatever happened to the concept of a forum? Anyone willing to read, consider and respond to the points in the thread or is it simply a case of weight of numbers of nay-sayers nowadays? I think most people familiar with this place know the answer to that but it would be nice to see it in black and white.

Here's one for debate:

Has the pursuit of the CRoW topic been a force for good in the BCA and the wider caving community?

So, has it?

 

[WhiteWater62]

Has anyone seen the issue that tahdah verified and their candidate management system has suffered.

https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2016/11/23/email-alert-to-outdoor-fans-after-mountain-training-website-hacked?printview=1