langcliffe
Well-known member
mrodoc said:
I must have a high boredom threshold - having fun has been my main motivation for caving for 53 years.
BCA member demographics
- Thread starter PeteHall
- Start date
I must have a high boredom threshold - having fun has been my main motivation for caving for 53 years.
mrodoc said:
There are indeed many sub-cults: digging, hut fettling, committees, arguing, photos, drinking, singing, growing beards like Gimli, throwing sofas around. My current recommended primer is The Detectorists.
I just go caving. Preferably mud free, saves no end of bother cleaning stuff. I like to minimise faffing outside the cave.
Rachel
Active member
It's worth considering that BCA membership stats only tell part of the story. There are plenty of young people caving seperately from clubs, who don't appear in the statistics. I'm pottering down Great Douk this afternoon with a work colleague and her six year old son. Neither are, or are ever likely to be, BCA members. I'm sure there must be many other trips like this, with kids going on trips but never showing up on the BCA radar.
Rachel said:
True indeed. Judging from the folks seen underground in Derbyshire, we always assumed that BCA members (i.e. "club cavers"), comprised only about 50% of cavers. It may vary between regions, depending on the type of caves, how easy they are to access and what equipment might be required.
Interestingly, whilst the effect of covid on BCA membership numbers will only now be being discovered (as clubs should have sent in returns) & the BMC have lost c.10% of their members, British Canoeing have seen a nearer 20% increase. (The actual numbers involved are quite similar, as BMC was half as big again as BC, but both are over 10 times the size of BCA).
JoshW
Well-known member
mikem said:
This doesn't necessarily surprise me, with local waterways much more widespread than mountains.
With a large number (as I understand it) of clubs offering free membership for those last year, and a comparatively cheap fee for BCA (compared to BMC etc), I would hope that, for the most part, we don't see a significant decrease in membership.
The exception being (of particularly concern to me) university clubs. with uni clubs unable to meet and no freshers fairs, their ability to pick up freshers and get them to join club/BCA will have shrunk massively. This is hopefully a concern to all, and once BCA youth and Development and CHECC have a clearer idea of what the key issues are going to be and have put a post-covid plan together, I hope to have the support of the wider caving community to make these plans a reality
cavemanmike
Well-known member
Our club (ucet) has had an increase as mentioned previously fee membership has helped
This thread was started after comments from Mad Phil as the new chair of BCA. It is very unfortunate that he didn't last out the year as he had lot's of energy, enthusiasm and ideas. I guess after the honeymoon period is over the usual problems surface and the role becomes soul destroying.
If I remember correctly by March most of the renewals are in and a comparative report can be done on the membership.
Caving is bound to take a hit after such a pandemic but I'm sure that given time it will bounce back strong. Well lets hope so.
If I remember correctly by March most of the renewals are in and a comparative report can be done on the membership.
Caving is bound to take a hit after such a pandemic but I'm sure that given time it will bounce back strong. Well lets hope so.
pwhole
Well-known member
After leavers and joiners have been sorted out, we have one more member than this time last year, which is pretty good really. If the folks who expressed an interest in joining over last year are still keen (assuming we can do something as a club eventually), I don't see why we can't increase membership some more.
From Rostam's recent membership report:
Anyway, membership has been increasing, although, as Rostam says, that doesn't necessarily mean the number of active cavers has increased. The 2018/19 reports don't include membership numbers (although those can presumably be found in other minutes).
Elsewhere I also noted - The 2018/19 report says 18% are over 65, this is surprisingly close to the 20% they make up of total population, although it isn't an accurate comparison, as U18s are under represented in caving.
& - The age demographic is also skewed slightly older in that if you want to remain a non-active member of a club you still have to join the BCA (this does not apply to BMC or BC(U) data). Have the numbers been compared for just green card holders, rather than all? [as most orange card holders are presumably over 65]
https://british-caving.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210221BCA-Demographics-Report.pdf
The 2018/19 data can be found on 2nd post on page 1 of this thread.
Although, as I noted elsewhere, if you consider that under 18s make up 20% of the UK population & are effectively excluded from joining clubs without their parents, the average age of the remaining general population does move up from around 40 to 50 years old (in 1975 the general average was 36 (median 34) & in 2019 it was 40 (median similar), so increased by about 1 year every 10 - but you'd need to know the number of children born at those periods to find out how much of that is due to people living longer). However, ages cannot easily be compared between years in BCA data, as undoubtedly more new members are likely to supply it than those who have been here long term & they are likely to be younger than the average...
Anyway, membership has been increasing, although, as Rostam says, that doesn't necessarily mean the number of active cavers has increased. The 2018/19 reports don't include membership numbers (although those can presumably be found in other minutes).
Elsewhere I also noted - The 2018/19 report says 18% are over 65, this is surprisingly close to the 20% they make up of total population, although it isn't an accurate comparison, as U18s are under represented in caving.
& - The age demographic is also skewed slightly older in that if you want to remain a non-active member of a club you still have to join the BCA (this does not apply to BMC or BC(U) data). Have the numbers been compared for just green card holders, rather than all? [as most orange card holders are presumably over 65]
https://british-caving.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210221BCA-Demographics-Report.pdf
The 2018/19 data can be found on 2nd post on page 1 of this thread.
From the other discussion (as it went off at a tangent) - I've combined my responses above (report is link in last post):
nearlywhite said:Badlad said:
A lot of discussion about things not in the report. What would be more useful would be a critique of it: what have you taken away from it? What would be a more helpful way to present the data? Are there issues with the format etc?
The problem is is that I already know your feedback (this report is promoted by one of your conclusions), and Josh's unsurprisingly
It'd be also good to hear from people who go 'oh that's not been my experience' when they look at the data to see if there are subtle regional/community variations and where might need more support.
nearlywhite
Active member
This is quite helpful and certainly something I'll have put into the following report - comparison with over 18 population samples (though that was the point of the cavers per population graph) with a breakdown of numbers in tables if that sounds good. I deliberately tried to avoid too many tables as I thought it made it a little harder to digest.
The under 18 data will be useful as a marker of the scouts/national caving team's success going forward so it won't be discounted. Though the next reports will focus on change I would have thought.
And as for cavers outside of BCA, I know there are many which is why you'll see estimates of 5-10,000. I think the BCA number is an easy one to go off and hopefully what we do over the next few years is bring people into the sport in general and hopefully our numbers would proportionally reflect that.
The under 18 data will be useful as a marker of the scouts/national caving team's success going forward so it won't be discounted. Though the next reports will focus on change I would have thought.
And as for cavers outside of BCA, I know there are many which is why you'll see estimates of 5-10,000. I think the BCA number is an easy one to go off and hopefully what we do over the next few years is bring people into the sport in general and hopefully our numbers would proportionally reflect that.
pwhole
Well-known member
This has been mentioned elsewhere, but the often artificial distinction between 'caving' and 'mine exploring' must surely have a significant impact on BCA membership, if it's perceived to be a 'caver-only' service by folks who more regularly frequent mines. Or may be completely unknown to them. I would imagine that the age demographic of 'mine explorers' to be older than 'cavers' in general, but then the recent incursions by, let's call them 'enthusiastic amateurs', are certainly from the younger end of the spectrum. Similarly I would guess that a majority of 'UrbExers' are younger than 'mine explorers'. I don't know whether Unis cater to 'mine exploring', but it doesn't seem so.
Personally I couldn't care less whether I go to a cave or a mine, as I find them both equally fascinating, and that's why I'm in BCA and PDMHS. As I do most of my underground work in Castleton, it's a pointless distinction really as the caves and mines are intermingled, and sometimes are both. 90% of Longcliffe is natural cave, but it's still classed as a mine as it's been modified, but then so have most caves that have been dug out. Same with Rowter Hole, Leviathan, Speedwell, etc. But I would hazard a guess that there's at least as many 'mine explorers' out there as 'cavers', possibly more, and I would also guess that most of them aren't members of BCA.
Personally I couldn't care less whether I go to a cave or a mine, as I find them both equally fascinating, and that's why I'm in BCA and PDMHS. As I do most of my underground work in Castleton, it's a pointless distinction really as the caves and mines are intermingled, and sometimes are both. 90% of Longcliffe is natural cave, but it's still classed as a mine as it's been modified, but then so have most caves that have been dug out. Same with Rowter Hole, Leviathan, Speedwell, etc. But I would hazard a guess that there's at least as many 'mine explorers' out there as 'cavers', possibly more, and I would also guess that most of them aren't members of BCA.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
pwhole said:
I believe all of the bona-fide mine exploring societies / clubs offer to purchase BCA membership for that member when they renew their subs. Some make it conditional for attending trips.
People typically get their BCA membership through one society and are members of other societies without adding BCA there too!
My BCA membership is through CATMHS for example, and I am just a member of WMS.
Chris.
nearlywhite
Active member
mikem said:
Now that's an interesting idea - I don't think that is true but from experience trying to pin down how many mine explorers there are is tricky and I suppose it comes down to how broad a definition you take.
pwhole
Well-known member
That's kind of what I meant really - a lot of it is far more 'underground', for want of a better term. I have only two 'secret' caving sites, that are still pretty obvious if you know me, and not really that secret. But I've got plenty of secret mine sites that you'll have to torture me to get details of on a public site, as they all had to be done under the radar - and/or the numpties must not find out. I know of several mine explorers (I hate that term) who wouldn't dream of joining BCA, or a club, they just do it. And also the fact that mines are far less specific in terms of geology (they don't need limestone to exist), there's way more of them everywhere. I bet there's few towns in Britain that don't have some sort of historic mining nearby.
I guess the other thing you can compare is how many clubs joined the BCA each year, how many people did they bring in compared to overall increase & how long had they existed before joining? (As new clubs are likely to have been set up with the intention of signing up, whereas older clubs probably weren't)
Certainly more effort could be put into advertising the advantages of insurance to those who independently explore mines (provided the insurers are happy with that, as increased exposure is likely to increase claims)
Using the 2019 general population figures, if you ignore the 20% who are under 18 & those who are over 65, the average age is approximately 42 (the meaning of life the universe & everything). It'll be easier for Rostam to give an answer as to how that compares...
Certainly more effort could be put into advertising the advantages of insurance to those who independently explore mines (provided the insurers are happy with that, as increased exposure is likely to increase claims)
Using the 2019 general population figures, if you ignore the 20% who are under 18 & those who are over 65, the average age is approximately 42 (the meaning of life the universe & everything). It'll be easier for Rostam to give an answer as to how that compares...
