BCA Newsletter 31 is now out and online

[andrewmcleod]

I hope that's a piss-poor attempt at humour, and is not genuine handwringing. *Every* student I know, the only exceptions that I can currently think of are mature (40+) students, that caves or mine explores, will have a drink, or several. Especially at an event, and it's irrespective of being in a uni club or not.

I thought it was a rather amusing and successful attempt at humour actually.

On a related note I have never drunk alcohol at any caving event either when I was a student and now I'm not. Never stopped me having fun or enjoying the party, as I'm sure some can attest...

 

[2xw]

David, I must underline that CHECC is NOT a party, it is a training and networking event at which there will be no alcohol consumed, though there may be a few games of shove ha'penny and bridge. Students are NOT irresponsible drunkards, but real people whose efforts to contribute to society must be recognised and taken seriously. It is NOT fair for all students to be tarred with the brush of debaucherous orgies of misdemeanour as have unfortunately been conducted in the past.

I hope that's a piss-poor attempt at humour, and is not genuine handwringing. *Every* student I know, the only exceptions that I can currently think of are mature (40+) students, that caves or mine explores, will have a drink, or several. Especially at an event, and it's irrespective of being in a uni club or not. I find I'm the rare one that doesn't drink much, no matter the age of the cavers I'm with. I don't think any of them have got to the "Debauched Orgy" stage, but I'm old and well spoken for, so I don't get invited to those anyway ;-)

😂😂😂

Rob you need to be more obvious or people who don't get it will get angry and call you piss poor.

 

[NewStuff]

David, I must underline that CHECC is NOT a party, it is a training and networking event at which there will be no alcohol consumed, though there may be a few games of shove ha'penny and bridge. Students are NOT irresponsible drunkards, but real people whose efforts to contribute to society must be recognised and taken seriously. It is NOT fair for all students to be tarred with the brush of debaucherous orgies of misdemeanour as have unfortunately been conducted in the past.

I hope that's a piss-poor attempt at humour, and is not genuine handwringing. *Every* student I know, the only exceptions that I can currently think of are mature (40+) students, that caves or mine explores, will have a drink, or several. Especially at an event, and it's irrespective of being in a uni club or not. I find I'm the rare one that doesn't drink much, no matter the age of the cavers I'm with. I don't think any of them have got to the "Debauched Orgy" stage, but I'm old and well spoken for, so I don't get invited to those anyway ;-)

😂😂😂

Rob you need to be more obvious or people who don't get it will get angry and call you piss poor.

Far too subtle those days, when everyone thinks they have a 'right' to be offended. I see far worse than that as genuine "complaints" about someone offending the handwringer.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

Perhaps the [irony][/irony] tag plugin needs installing ?

 

[David Rose]

Erm... anyone want to comment on anything actually in the newsletter, as opposed to what is becoming a somewhat abstruse discussion on the nature of irony?

 

[Pitlamp]

Erm... anyone want to comment on anything actually in the newsletter, as opposed to what is becoming a somewhat abstruse discussion on the nature of irony?

OK then - how about - thanks for the efforts you have clearly put into getting the information out to members?

I've not always agreed with some of your opinions about caving but I recognise when someone's obviously doing their best to make a contribution to the caving community generally. So thank you.

 

[David Rose]

Thank you Pitlamp for your kind words  - though I wasn't fishing for compliments, just wanted to steer the thread back to the newsletter and anything in it that people wanted to debate.

 

[droid]

OK.

How about the omission of any reference to the buzzword 'conservation' in the Draenan report?

 

[David Rose]

Please enlarge on this, Droid. What should I have said?

 

[Badlad]

I suppose David could have reported on the camps down the cave and associated trash left behind by some of the original explorers.  Whose trash it was and the efforts of those to clear it up is worthy of reporting again, but then that is very controversial.

 

[Martin Laverty]

David - Droid may have been prompted by a recent post on Darkness Below...(which, by the way, is, perhaps, a little misleading about the Cambrian Caving Council constitution)

 

[droid]

Martin is entirely correct.

And I wouldn't dream of telling a journalist what to write, but I'm not too bothered about pointing out omissions.... :

 

[Badlad]

One important point to consider in the access and conservation debate is that in most cases the Access Controlling Bodies (ACBs) are unable to 'control' or to 'police' access to caves.  Difficulties may arise due to the designation of the land, the open access routes, the nature of the caves and their own voluntary resources.  Certainly PDCMG cannot control access or police their agreements, that is already clear.  ACB's need to be honest with landowners about this.  In the north we have taken up this position with landowners and feel we are building better relations because of it.  In the end access agreements will only work if cavers build a consensus around them.  Regional and National Councils may offer guidelines but are not enforcers nor should they be.

Conservation is nearly always brought up as one reason to restrict access, often exponents pay lip service to conservation but don't really follow what they preach.  The messy Draenen camps are an example of this, put in by those close to the management group and left to rot, it is seen as acceptable but it isn't really, is it?  This is not confined to Draenen, there are many old camps and diggers messes in caves where access is controlled, often accepted by those very people who want to control access for others on the grounds of conservation. 

We need to be realistic and honest.  If caving is going exist as a sport then people will enter caves to explore them and by far the best way to conserve caves is through education in best practice.  By far the best way to enforce an access arrangement is by building consensus.

Conservation through education, Access by consensus - could be a motto there somewhere 

 

[David Rose]

Very sensible principles, Badlad. Without consensus, we will get nowhere. 

 

[BradW]

Consensus? I don't see much chance of that all the time we keep reading dismissive comments about ACBs who, with the best will in the world, are up against a small handful of access anarchists who seem to have won over major players in the BCA.

 

[David Rose]

The way to build consensus is not, I would suggest, to spray around terms such as 'access anarchists'. I am certainly not an anarchist. I happen to share the view supported by the legal opinion given by my sister Dinah, an occasional caver and eminent public law QC, and by a large majority of BCA members in the referendum two years ago: that the CROW Act 2000 applies to caves, and that this should be recognised. This was further endorsed by the BCA Council in October 2017. A majority of close to 90 per cent of members who voted in the recent ballot decided to remove the clause in the BCA constitution that used to say that landowners had a right to restrict access to caves on their land, wherever that might be - in a CROW access area, or not.

None of the above implies that I and those who share this view are anarchists. Neither does it imply that even on CROW land, some caves ought to be protected for conservation reasons. All the pro-CROW cavers I know have always accepted that s.26 of the CROW Act is a means to restrict access in such cases, and there are soime caves where this would be appropriate - for example, Upper Flood Swallet. Nor does it imply there is no role for ACBs.

How about we try to get some light into this debate, instead of just heat?

 

[David Rose]

Oops. I missed out a crucial word. I meant to say that none of the above should imply that access should NOT be restricted on conservation grounds to some caves on CROW land.

I think (to be clear) that access SHOULD be restricted to some systems on CROW land. But I also agree with Badland: the best way forward is through consensus building and education - especially about conservation.

 

[BradW]

No David you misunderstand. The anarchists are those who make it a principle of all that they do to bypass and completely undermine the ACB by cutting off locks, digging without permission, blasting out tight bits of cave without consultation - that sort of thing. Don't deny that it happens - it does. Then along come individuals with influence in the BCA and endorse all of that by conveniently ignoring it and saying how wonderful it is that there has been a vote to stick two fingers up to landowners concerns.

 

[David Rose]

I'm not denying it happens. The recent blasting out of what had been a not very difficult squeeze in Ogof Draenen is a case in point. (It can't have been difficult, because I could get through it without much trouble, and I have a 47 inch chest and very wide shoulders.) But as I said before, it's my belief that the way to prevent it is by building consensus.

That requires movement and compromise by everyone, and honest, straightforward but also polite discussion. 

 

[BradW]

Does polite discussion include rubbishing the efforts of ACBs, much as Badlad has done?