BCA 'referendum' on CRoW

[graham]

As a matter of interest, who is/are the relevant authority/s? How can there be a relevant authority to restrict access when caving doesn't have a right to be there in the first place?

You have already said, in this thread that "Restriction for conservation WILL happen..." yet you do not know the answer to this question.

I think you make my case for me quite eloquently. Thank you.

 

[ah147]

As a matter of interest, who is/are the relevant authority/s? How can there be a relevant authority to restrict access when caving doesn't have a right to be there in the first place?

You have already said, in this thread that "Restriction for conservation WILL happen..." yet you do not know the answer to this question.

I think you make my case for me quite eloquently. Thank you.

I disagree. There IS provision for restriction of access for conservation grounds under section 26 of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000.

The mechanisms of this provision are not known to me, you or anyone yet as for there to be a mechanism to prevent access under CRoW it has to be accepted that there is access under CRoW.

What part of that is wrong?

 

[jasonbirder]

It seems straightforward, there is already a mechanism for restricting disturbance to sensitive sites under the CRoW act as stated above...
One which every other organisation was comfortable with...which covers everything from from protection of Archaeological sites to conservation of rare nesting birds...
How much more information is required?
If you're looking for someone to supply you with contact details, decision time and an outcome for every possible instance then we'll all be waiting a long, long time...
Ahhhh....now I understand

 

[graham]

It seems straightforward ...

Seems? But is it, actually? Hard facts please, not woolly opinions.

You do have some facts don't you?

Oh!

 

[jasonbirder]

If you're looking at facts...then maybe you could explain why Caving would require a substantively different mechanism for protecting sites than that which applies to Archaeological sites, landscape features and rare wildlife?

If existing protections are enough for those...then why do you consider caving to differ massively?

Or are you simply opposed to freer caver access and looking for any mechanism by which you can delay/derail moves to facilitate it?

 

[damian]

I can confirm that BCA will be conducting a postal ballot of all its members. The details are still being worked on - we were only charged with making it happen a couple of days ago - but there are a few things I can confirm.

1) The question will be: "Should BCA, on your behalf, campaign for The Countryside and Rights of Way Act (2000) to apply to going underground?" The options will be "yes" or "no".

2) The ballot paper will be accompanied by a summary of how BCA will proceed if the overall answer is "yes" and how it shall proceed if the answer is "no". It will also encourage members to research the issue as fully as they can and provide a link to the Act itself, but nothing else.

3) The dates are not yet fixed, but it is likely that deadline for returns will be mid- to late-December with the ballot papers being posted out about 3 weeks in advance of this deadline.

I am happy to try to answer any further questions, but you will appreciate we are busy exploring the best way of conducting the ballot at the moment, so answers may lack detail!

In the meantime, if you are a member (whatever you colour of card), you are encouraged to check we have your up-to-date address and to begin (if you haven't already) researching the various arguments. No doubt both sides will provide a summary somewhere on here in due course.

Damian Weare
BCA Secretary

 

[graham]

... It will also encourage members to research the issue as fully as they can and provide a link to the Act itself, but nothing else...

Thanks, Damian, for confirming this. It is clear from this thread that much misinformation will be taken forward and very few real, hard facts.

i do not blame you for this, but as I noted earlier, I am very disappointed in Council for not even trying to elicit the full picture so that members can make informed decisions.

 

[damian]

i do not blame you for this, but as I noted earlier, I am very disappointed in Council for not even trying to elicit the full picture so that members can make informed decisions.

It was debated at length. When the minutes appear you will probably see that I argued for the inclusion of a summary of the arguments from both camps, but it was clear this was not the will of the meeting. That's democracy for you.

 

[graham]

i do not blame you for this, but as I noted earlier, I am very disappointed in Council for not even trying to elicit the full picture so that members can make informed decisions.

It was debated at length. When the minutes appear you will probably see that I argued for the inclusion of a summary of the arguments from both camps, but it was clear this was not the will of the meeting. That's democracy for you.

Indeed, and as I said, I don't blame you. I'm not asking for summaries of opinions from either side, I'm asking for third party information about what would actually happen & how other parties would react. It seems that none of that is to be forthcoming.

 

[jasonbirder]

Its not hard to find all the information Graham claims interest in...by simply reading the CroW act...if thats too difficult i've summarised it here...

Nature conservation and heritage preservation.

The relevant authority may by direction exclude or restrict access?to any land during any period if they are satisfied that the exclusion or restriction of?is necessary?for the purposes specified
(Including)

? the purpose of conserving flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features of the land in question;
? the purpose of preserving ? any other structure, work, site, garden or area which is of historic, architectural, traditional, artistic or archaeological interest.


The relevant authority is the countryside body, or, where the land falls within a National Park, the National Park authority. However provision enables the Forestry Commissioners to act as the relevant authority for any land which appears to the Commissioners to consist wholly or predominantly of woodland.

Provision exists...for the authorities to restrict access to preserve features where necessary...managed by either EN, the CCW, the relevant National Park Authority or the Forestry Commission...

Does Graham require any MORE information or is that not sufficient...

 

[graham]

Its not hard to find all the information Graham claims interest in...by simply reading the CroW act...if thats too difficult i've summarised it here...

Nature conservation and heritage preservation.

The relevant authority may by direction exclude or restrict access?to any land during any period if they are satisfied that the exclusion or restriction of?is necessary?for the purposes specified
(Including)

? the purpose of conserving flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features of the land in question;
? the purpose of preserving ? any other structure, work, site, garden or area which is of historic, architectural, traditional, artistic or archaeological interest.


The relevant authority is the countryside body, or, where the land falls within a National Park, the National Park authority. However provision enables the Forestry Commissioners to act as the relevant authority for any land which appears to the Commissioners to consist wholly or predominantly of woodland.

Provision exists...for the authorities to restrict access to preserve features where necessary...managed by either EN, the CCW, the relevant National Park Authority or the Forestry Commission...

Does Graham require any MORE information or is that not sufficient...

Who does one contact? What detail is required. Most importantly does EN have the resources to actually process these requests, how long would the process take and can any restrictions be applied in the mean time?

If you do not think these questions are reasonable, please explain why. Not to me but to those who care for Upper Flood Swallet and St Cuthbert's Swallet.

Thank you

 

[Peter Burgess]

Yes - one caver one vote please, regardless of how they are categorised as BCA members. Otherwise the referendum means diddly squat.

 

[braveduck]

Will cavers with a Green card but no BCA membership  get an individual vote ?

 

[Peter Burgess]

That's my point, braveduck. It's a very significant proportion of the UK's active cavers.

 

[Les W]

Will cavers with a Green card but no BCA membership  get an individual vote ?

A green card is BCA membership...

In the meantime, if you are a member (whatever you colour of card), you are encouraged to check we have your up-to-date address and to begin (if you haven't already) researching the various arguments. No doubt both sides will provide a summary somewhere on here in due course.

Every card holding member of BCA will get an individual ballot paper for them to use to express their preferences.
Green card holders ARE individual members of BCA
As Damian says "whatever you colour of card"...

If you want to take part in this referendum you must:
1. Be a member of BCA
2. Ensure BCA has your correct address.
3. Fill in and return the ballot paper, in good time.

 

[Oceanrower]

Just had a poke about on the BCA website.

Does anyone know how I can check whether they have my correct address or not as I can't see any relevant area (unless I just send an email asking them to check, and I don't think they'd want several thousand members doing that!)

 

[Peter Burgess]

Are you a direct member or a club member? If a club member you will be relying on the club you pay dues through to have provided the correct address at the beginning of the year.

 

[Les W]

Will the BCA be sending Ballots to a club sec to distribute and return if they do not have individual addresses?

BCA will not be sending ballot papers to clubs to distribute as this is open to massive ballot fraud and abuse...

BCA will be sending the ballot papers to the address they have for each individual member in their records. If you are a Club Individual Member (CIM) (Normally a green card (caving) or an orange card (non caving) I believe) then you should check with your club that the details they have given BCA are up to date.

If you are a Direct Individual Member (DIM) then you should already be receiving correspondence from BCA to your address (membership renewal notices). If you are receiving those then BCA probably has your correct address...

 

[NewStuff]

Will the BCA be sending Ballots to a club sec to distribute and return if they do not have individual addresses?

BCA will not be sending ballot papers to clubs to distribute as this is open to massive ballot fraud and abuse...

BCA will be sending the ballot papers to the address they have for each individual member in their records. If you are a Club Individual Member (CIM) (Normally a green card (caving) or an orange card (non caving) I believe) then you should check with your club that the details they have given BCA are up to date.

If you are a Direct Individual Member (DIM) then you should already be receiving correspondence from BCA to your address (membership renewal notices). If you are receiving those then BCA probably has your correct address...

That's the answer I was hoping for. Thanks.

 

[estelle]

BCA will be sending the ballot papers to the address they have for each individual member in their records. If you are a Club Individual Member (CIM) (Normally a green card (caving) or an orange card (non caving) I believe) then you should check with your club that the details they have given BCA are up to date.

With the fact that we're getting close to the annual BCA renewal timescales, this is probably rather important if you moved house during the year as i'd put money a lot of clubs won't remember to inform the BCA of any address changes once individuals have their card!