BCA 'referendum' on CRoW

[Dave Tyson]

With the fact that we're getting close to the annual BCA renewal timescales, this is probably rather important if you moved house during the year as i'd put money a lot of clubs won't remember to inform the BCA of any address changes once individuals have their card!

It's really down to members who have moved house to pester their club secretary to pass the new details onto Glenn, the BCA membership secretary. One person in our club has just moved and so I will be sending an update to Glenn later this week.

Of course if you set up a mail forwarding arrangement for your old address with the Post Office you may get the ballot paper anyway...

Dave

 

[caving_fox]

Thanks to all the volunteers at the BCA for their time, and for finally doing something public about CROW access. Let's hope for a clear majority one way or the other, and some clear timescales as to when/what any (potential) changes may happen.

 

[Rhys]

If existing protections are enough for those...then why do you consider caving to differ massively?

Are they enough? Not that long ago we, on Mendip, saw serious damage to the Priddy Circles, an important prehistoric monument.

Priddy Circles are not on Access Land, so it's not a good example. Perhaps if they were on Access Land, the extra sets of eyes of the general public as they walked across the land might actiually have helped guard against damage by the landowner.

Rhys

 

[graham]

A fair point Rhys.

however, my reasons for choosing that example were firstly to demonstrate ... that I do not slavishly worship landowners and secondly to remind people that even when that damage was done, it took a very long time to get the relevant authorities to prosecute. In my view we cannot rely on them getting any process completed quickly.

 

[martinm]

Thanks to all the volunteers at the BCA for their time, and for finally doing something public about CROW access. Let's hope for a clear majority one way or the other, and some clear timescales as to when/what any (potential) changes may happen.

I really would like a 'like'  button  on  here!     

 

[cap n chris]

[mod]Have removed quite a lot of off topic sniping and irrelevancies. Try to keep on topic, strictly on topic, please. Important and potentially far-reaching debates need to be aired. Resorting to playground taunting will result in locking or wholesale pruning.[/mod]

 

[Jenny P]

I shall be sending out a DCA Information Circular this week and will inform all our members (clubs, associates and individuals) that BCA will be asking for a vote on the CRoW issue shortly.  I will remind them that they will need to ensure that, as individual members, both DIMs and CIMs, BCA has the correct postal address for them to receive and return their ballot paper. 

I will include for every member a copy of the independently produced information leaflet on CRoW available at Hidden Earth and, for the benefit of clubs, I shall also include the web address where this can be downloaded.  I shall advise them of another web address from which they can download further relevant documents and will list the documents available in this way (i.e. both for and against).  I shall point them to the C&A section of the BCA website for the minutes and various documents put to the meeting on 16 August; to the various articles in several recent Descents; and also to the fact that the subject has been discussed at length on UKcaving.  My DCA Rep's. report on last Saturday's BCA Council Meeting will be printed and circulated to all DCA members and will be discussed at our meeting on 1 Nov.  Our DCA officers who attended the BCA C&A meeting in August will doubtless include comments in their reports to the DCA meeting.

DCA?s minutes for our previous meeting on 28 June (on our website at www.theDCA.org.uk) also record discussion on this but DCA has so far not attempted to make a decision for or against; nor has it instructed its officers on how to vote at a BCA C&A or BCA Council meeting.  (It never does this, preferring to accept that DCA Officers are perfectly capable of reflecting the differing views of members).  DCA Members all know that I, personally, am in favour of CRoW extension but I will make clear that, unless DCA formally states a view at its meeting on 1st. Nov., I cannot presume to vote one way or the other as a representative on DCA's behalf at a BCA meeting.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary

 

[peterk]

Re the restrictions on CROW land and "relevant authority"
There is a paper on the "GUIDANCE FOR STATUTORY AUTHORITIES INVOLVED IN ASSESSING THE NATURE CONSERVATION IMPLICATIONS OF A STATUTORY RIGHT OF ACCESS IN ENGLAND AND WALES UNDER SECTION 26" at http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/94008 but of course "caves" were not addressed.
There is guidance for landowners and restrictions at http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/91047
The BMC take on it is at https://www.thebmc.co.uk/crow-restrictions

The grounds for a restriction are interesting and I have concerns that, as was said earlier in the thread, all the implications have not been thought through.  This is a link to closed CROW access land on the "waterfalls walk" in Ingleton http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk/OasysStatic/ViewRestrictionDocumentServlet?CaseNumber=2005010080 This land is closed "The open access land shown hatched on the map below is closed. Admission by ticket only".

 

[graham]

Re the restrictions on CROW land and "relevant authority"
There is a paper on the "GUIDANCE FOR STATUTORY AUTHORITIES INVOLVED IN ASSESSING THE NATURE CONSERVATION IMPLICATIONS OF A STATUTORY RIGHT OF ACCESS IN ENGLAND AND WALES UNDER SECTION 26" at http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/94008 but of course "caves" were not addressed.
There is guidance for landowners and restrictions at http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/91047
The BMC take on it is at https://www.thebmc.co.uk/crow-restrictions

The grounds for a restriction are interesting and I have concerns that, as was said earlier in the thread, all the implications have not been thought through.  This is a link to closed CROW access land on the "waterfalls walk" in Ingleton http://www.openaccess.naturalengland.org.uk/OasysStatic/ViewRestrictionDocumentServlet?CaseNumber=2005010080 This land is closed "The open access land shown hatched on the map below is closed. Admission by ticket only".

Thank you for that, Peter.

One of the things that folks need to bear in mind is that Natural England's view on 'important geological or physiographical features' will not necessarily be the same as that of cavers. After all all that white stally stuff is of little scientific importance.

 

[Bottlebank]

I will include for every member a copy of the independently produced information leaflet on CRoW available at Hidden Earth and, for the benefit of clubs, I shall also include the web address where this can be downloaded.

Any chance you could put that link on here as well Jenny? Googling it doesn't produce anything.

 

[Ouan]

BCA will be sending the ballot papers to the address they have for each individual member in their records....

What about CIMS/DIMS who live overseas?
Would this be this the caving equivalent of the West Lothian Question?

 

[Bob Mehew]

I will include for every member a copy of the independently produced information leaflet on CRoW available at Hidden Earth and, for the benefit of clubs, I shall also include the web address where this can be downloaded.

Any chance you could put that link on here as well Jenny? Googling it doesn't produce anything.

http://tinyurl.com/pro-CRoW-caving-01 is the link.  Within the document is another link to all of the relevant documentation so far produced including the 'Instructions' and the reference material given to the the barrister, as announced in the recent edition of Descent.  Happy reading.

 

[graham]

But Bob, that's merely 'stuff' about your opinions and those of your confr?re's. There is nothing in there about what might happen in practice, on the ground, if you were - unlikely as it is - to get your way on this. Nothing on there actually from EN about how they might react. Nothing from DEFRA. Nothing from landowners.

Nothing of real use at all, really.

 

[Bob Mehew]

But Bob, that's merely 'stuff' about your opinions and those of your confr?re's. There is nothing in there about what might happen in practice, on the ground, if you were - unlikely as it is - to get your way on this. Nothing on there actually from EN about how they might react. Nothing from DEFRA. Nothing from landowners.

It answers the question which was asked, not your original question.  Although I have answers for most of the points you make, I am seeking advice on one outstanding point.  If I don't get it soonish, I will post the rest.

 

[cap n chris]

[mod]2nd intervention on the same thread in the same day to remove personal sniping. Keep on topic or find yourself on moderated status.[/mod]

 

[damian]

What about CIMS/DIMS who live overseas? Would this be this the caving equivalent of the West Lothian Question?

I suspect this was a tongue-in-cheek question, but in case it was serious, ALL BCA members, regardless of where they live, will be posted a ballot paper. Obviously those who live overseas will have a shorter timescale for returns, but I guess that's to be expected.

 

[cap n chris]

How much ??? is it costing to find out that the answer is yes?

 

[RobinGriffiths]

How much ??? is it costing to find out that the answer is yes?

Well, it is a once in a generation issue. To coin a (recently oft used) phrase..

And what further devolutionary concessions are offered in the case of a No vote?  Oh, none!

 

[Cookie]

How much ??? is it costing to find out that the answer is yes?

Well North of ?3000 and similar for the follow-up ballot. 

 

[Bottlebank]

How much ??? is it costing to find out that the answer is yes?

Well North of ?3000 and similar for the follow-up ballot. 

Surely you could half that by having both ballots in one go - i.e. Question 1 - are you against/in favour and Question 2, in the event of the vote in question 1 going in favour would you agree to the following changes?

I'd have thought the BCA could spend the money in better ways, and whilst in principle I'm in favour of a ballot, given the cost and that it seems there is little chance of Defra and NE changing their view it does seem pretty pointless.

Why not wait and see how the canoeists get on?