BCA 'referendum' on CRoW

[graham]

The argument we pro CroW have been putting forward is that all it requires is a statement by NE that it does.

Argue as much as you like. get a statement from NE to this effect and you might, possibly, start to convince people.

The explain how long getting such a statement would take.

Then explain what'll happen to the cave in the mean time.

After that we'll start to talk about landowners & things like their views on digging, should this happen.

 

[ah147]

And, as I have noted before, has anyone considered the very important point that shiny pretty stal may have great aesthetic value but little scientific value? Will NE take aesthetics into account before issuing an order?

What is the point in conserving aesthetics if nobody gets to see them?

 

[graham]

And, as I have noted before, has anyone considered the very important point that shiny pretty stal may have great aesthetic value but little scientific value? Will NE take aesthetics into account before issuing an order?

What is the point in conserving aesthetics if nobody gets to see them?

What makes you think nobody will get to see them? AFAIK cavers are going down UFS just about every weekend.

 

[ah147]

Many other caves where this isn't the case, but, even in the case of Upper Flood Swallet, its determined on the whim of leaders. I'm grateful for all cave leaders who give up time to take people caving into these restricted caves. But, they are only human, can't constantly be available and the access isn't open to all.

A busy working life combined with family life leaves many of us not 100% sure of what free time we shall have, so can't book trips so do look for trips at short notice. Its hard (not impossible) to find lead trips at short notice (with good reason). Without the access restrictions many more people would get to see these caves of great aesthetic value.

 

[graham]

And without those restrictions, there would be a lot less to see. Compare and contrast Swildons and St.Cuthbert's.

 

[droid]

The one consistent thing about all the ProCrow side is that we are expected to believe that all will be perfect and nice in the free-access Nirvana that is Crow for Caves.

I've yet to read anything that convinces ME that it will be the case. Could the ProCrows be indulging in wishful thinking?

I think we should be told.

 

[NewStuff]

Could the ProCrows be indulging in wishful thinking?

I think we should be told.

No, I don't think we are. There will probably be the odd issue, as there usually is with anything in life.
I don't think anyone not living in fairyland thinks it will be the problem-free nirvana of caving that you attempt to foist upon us.

 

[graham]

So what, NewStuff, do you think the problems might be and how do you propose to deal with them?

 

[Smiley Alan]

heres a problem prehaps  . let's assume the procrow wins  and caves which are locked  can now be accesed by any one . i guess this  will mean literaly any one and not just cavers . its been said that  landowners are protected from being sooed by crow . fair enuf but wont there me a media uproar if a kiddy  gets hurt and the papers  demand it gets gated .

 

[cap n chris]

Moot point! - will open access be dependent upon some kind of bona fide or will it be a case of any numpty with a site helmet and a cigarette lighter can fall down Coral Cave?

 

[Les W]

Moot point! - will open access be dependent upon some kind of bona fide or will it be a case of any numpty with a site helmet and a cigarette lighter can fall down Coral Cave?

What makes Coral Cave any different to Gaping Gill or Jingling Pot, or even Cheddar Gorge or Lands End?
Surely it is up to individuals to asses their own risk, and for Mr Darwin to intervene if they don't...

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed and I heartily agree; however, there is a potential media embarrassment for the powers that be IF (OK, it's a rather big "If") a child gets injured falling into an un-gated cave after the gate is removed by a change in access law, the same gate being placed there after a child got injured falling to the cave. I think that makes things possibly "a bit interesting".

 

[Peter Burgess]

Assessing risks is easy for a yawning gulf or a cliff edge. It's more down to experience when it comes to those places that look deceptively safe.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

How is it any different to the current situation???  There are thousands, yes literally thousands, of open caves and mines all over the country, how often does anyone fall down them, get stuck, or whatever? I simply cannot see that there are hoards of people who are yearning to go underground but are restrained from chucking themselves down every possible hole by a few words in a piece of legislation.

Pretty much everyone who wants to go underground is already doing so, there will be no significant change in numbers of cavers or cave rescues.

 

[owd git]

Assessing risks is easy for a yawning gulf or a cliff edge. It's more down to experience when it comes to those places that look deceptively safe.

wot? like the 'NO' camp? 

I'm already fetching me coat!

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It seems to me there are three questions to be addressed:

1.  Does CROW apply to caving.

2.  If it does will gated caves on access land be legally required to have said gates removed?  How long would the process of enforcement take?

3.  If gated caves on access land are required to have their gates removed will this be overridden by applying section 20?  How long will this process take?

Is the process of '2' really going to be faster than the process of '3'?

And let us not forget that caves like Waterwheel and Upper Flood are on County Council land adjacent to the Charterhouse Centre, and within the area used by young children for self-led orienteering.    The county and the centre have a duty of care that would clearly be breached by leaving entrance shafts wide open. 

 

[graham]

And let us not forget that caves like Waterwheel and Upper Flood are on County Council land adjacent to the Charterhouse Centre, and within the area used by young children for self-led orienteering.    The county and the centre have a duty of care that would clearly be breached by leaving entrance shafts wide open. 

Thus clearly demonstrating one way in which these caves differ from Gaping Gill or Jingling Pot.

 

[Ship-badger]

Indeed and I heartily agree; however, there is a potential media embarrassment for the powers that be IF (OK, it's a rather big "If") a child gets injured falling into an un-gated cave after the gate is removed by a change in access law, the same gate being placed there after a child got injured falling to the cave. I think that makes things possibly "a bit interesting".

Chris, name me one single cave that has been gated because a child was injured after falling into or entering it. They have been gated either because the landowner was worried that either people or livestock might fall into or enter it; or because one group of cavers thought that other cavers should not have free and easy access to the cave.

I may be wrong, but I have not heard of any problems regarding rock-climbing that have occurred as a result of CROW.

 

[graham]

Chris, name me one single cave that has been gated because a child was injured after falling into or entering it.

Pen Park Hole, Southmead, Bristol. Sealed by the City Council in 1961 after some local kids had to be retrieved from it. Re-opened (and gated) in 1993 after 10 years of patient negotiation by me so that cavers could get down there once again.

 

[David Rose]

If you go for a stroll in the Moelwyns, you will come across many open entrances to the slate mines. Some of them you could easily fall into, especially in the mist. I'm not aware of any incident of this kind. This part of the thread is a red herring. There are valid arguments for seeking restrictions on access to UFS on conservation grounds, but not kids falling down it, a problem which could (if it exists) be solved with minimal imagination.