BCA Statement on Casterton Fell Access

[Pitlamp]

Can I just remind everyone that the only reason we have an access agreement is that certain individuals give a lot of time, as volunteers, to try to keep things running smoothly. Certain comments above seem to me to be a bit unhelpful (though most are well meant) - let's not say or do anything which makes the job of those involved any more difficult than it already is.

 

[damian]

I belong to a club which is a member of another Regional Council (Cambrian) but is not a direct member of BCA. Can we apply for permits or not?

I guess you could try writing to the Land Agents yourselves. The CNCC agreement with the landowners allows them to grant access to BCA Member Clubs only.

author=NigR link=topic=14026.msg180694#msg180694 date=1346708020]Is Casterton Fell open access for walkers or do they need permits as well?

It is Access Land, so those rules apply. As you are probably well aware, though, this does not specifically allow people to go caving.

Do BCA CIC assessors get a permit when they take training and assessments courses in there ?

Yes. Permits are available for CIC T/As.

Would it be possible to get some background on the need for a permit system?

Basically the landowners weren't happy with hoards of cavers turning up and going caving back in the 60s (IIRC) and banned all cavers from the Fell. CNCC began negotiating with the landowners and reached an agreement whereby they would "police" access on the landowner's behalf. This situation pretty much continues today. The landowners obviously have certain requirements (e.g. number of cavers per day, access routes, number of cars, insurance, no commercial caving except CIC T/A work) and CNCC are required to stick to this.

 

[Pete Brookdale]

years ago when I was in the RRCPC we went caving a lot of weekends on Casterton and I never once saw a permit, So i presume they have an all access permit for anyday?

 

[crickleymal]

Basically the landowners weren't happy with hoards of cavers turning up and going caving back in the 60s (IIRC) and banned all cavers from the Fell. CNCC began negotiating with the landowners and reached an agreement whereby they would "police" access on the landowner's behalf. This situation pretty much continues today. The landowners obviously have certain requirements (e.g. number of cavers per day, access routes, number of cars, insurance, no commercial caving except CIC T/A work) and CNCC are required to stick to this.

So why isn't it being "policed"? And why is it being brouoght up in a public forum without the clubs involved being talked to first?

 

[Pete Brookdale]

So why isn't it being "policed"? And why is it being brouoght up in a public forum without the clubs involved being talked to first?

Because everybody knows this is the UK Grumpies forum for all the whingers & Whiners

Without things like this what would there be to moan about.??

 

[NigR]

I don't threaten people, Nig. From what I hear that's what the trespassers do. To landowners an' all.

Any specific examples, Graham? Any firm evidence? Or is this all just hearsay?

 

[Ian Adams]

Clearly there are problems with the ?permit? system and, clearly, improvements need to be looked at.

The issue of BCA members entering the caves is one matter but there is also the matter of non-BCA members. How would a relatively new caver even k now that a permit was required ?  (I didn?t when I first started caving). Once a caver becomes aware that a permit is required, how would they know where to begin looking ?  (Again, I didn?t when I first learned about permits). Please don?t answer  this by saying ?join a club? because not everyone will join a club and sometimes people will just go ?caving? with a group of friends.

How much of the landowners wishes which has been included within the ?agreement? actually came from the caving ?officers? presiding at that time ?

Just how valid are the conservation considerations and who draws the line ?

Why should cavers not enjoy the same privileges that others enjoy under CROW ?  (I am aware of the wording of the law and aware of the BCA legal officer?s statement in this regard)

Is it not the case that the existing system is tired, partly ?out of date? (due to potentially increasing numbers of non-BCA members caving) and impractical to police ?

Is it time to review the whole permit process ?

Ian

 

[crickleymal]

So why isn't it being "policed"? And why is it being brouoght up in a public forum without the clubs involved being talked to first?

Because everybody knows this is the UK Grumpies forum for all the whingers & Whiners

Without things like this what would there be to moan about.??

Heh! I did wonder.

 

[tony from suffolk]

It seems clear that the permit system, and the rules for caving drawn up as part of the access agreements with the landowners, have not been abided by for many years. So given the almost complete lack of any form of access control over a long period, what has been the impact on the caves and the land thereabouts?

It would seem to me that whatever rules are drawn up and conditions imposed around the present permit system, these will not be complied with anyway. At the moment I cannot see any practical way of imposing a permit system on this Open Access land. Lock the caves? Have folks standing guard? No.

Presumably the landowners' main concern is over potential liability. I don't know enough about this to comment but if a way could be found of absolving the landowners then surely a permit system would be unnecessary?

 

[Pitlamp]

You volunteering to do all the work of a "review" Jackalpup? Otherwise it's far from "clearly".

If not, perhaps it would be better to celebrate what we have got. There are still plenty of cavers around (not me, I hasten to add - too young) who remember the fells being completely closed in the wake of that rescue at Pegleg Pot in the 60s. That was the very reason CNCC was formed and it still does its best to work for the benefit of cavers. It might not be perfect but the situation is a whole lot better than if the CNCC hadn't existed. We should always be grateful to the landowners for granting what access we do enjoy.

To be fair to you though Jackalpup, it doesn't hurt to keep the situation dynamic and try to make improvements when the opportunity arises.

Just to pick up on someone else's point above (regarding possible conservation concerns) - earlier this year some of us turned out to support Ray Duffy's excellent work to improve the condition of the paths on Casterton Fell. One direct (and enjoyable) way which we can all continue to support our regional body's access efforts is to turn up at the next Casterton Fell conservation work weekend on 6th/7th October. Yes, it's slightly more effort than tapping a keyboard here but it massively helps caver access and you'll get really well fed (if the last session is anything to go by).

 

[Alex]

As an observation, I would note that a system requiring planning doesn't fit the habits of many cavers particularly well (except club trips, which only really exist in the university clubs anyway). Typically I'll plan my trip while I'm up at the farm, with a decision based on the current and recent weather, who's feeling like caving that day, what sort of trip we can manage etc. In many ways it's much safer that the cave we have a permit for doesn't have a bearing on that decision.

Yes I agree think that is the main problem of any permit system, its a particular problem on Castleton fell however as caves like Lancaster high level is doable in all weather, which is why I think so many do it here compared to other areas. Castleton seems to get more visitors than Kingsdale!

 

[Alex]

Casterton Fell conservation work weekend on 6th/7th October.

I will check my diary, I take it we would stay at Bull pot farm?

 

[Pitlamp]

Yes Alex - in fact for people helping the conservation work I think it's free to stay.
Ray made a pretty good job of organising the last Casterton weekend and I believe he's in charge of the next one.

It's likely there will be info broadcast (Descent, this forum, etc) before the actual weekend.

 

[Andrew W]

Several people here have made the observation that the permit system falls down for non-BCA members. As I understand it, the current access arrangement is that the CNCC is authorised by the landowner to issue permits to BCA or CNCC members only. Whilst I agree that it would be desirable for this to be extended to non-BCA members, if the landowner does not wish to do that then I don't see why non-BCA members should assume they have any access to the caves. There are plenty of things in this world that you cannot do without joining the appropriate organisation. Non-BCA members have a simple choice of join a club or negotiate their own access.

As for non-BCA members not being aware of the rules, it is a bit hard to imagine how they could not be aware. Most sources of information about the location of caves in Easegill, either on the web or in print, have details about the access arrangements. Isn't there also a sign at Bull Pot Farm detailing the arrangements? The information is not hard to find.

Clearly BCA members should be following the access rules and it may well turn out that non-compliant BCA members are the bulk of the problem. It does, however, concern me that compliance with the access agreement could be measured by whether or not non-BCA members ignore the rules. If a caver does not want to join the BCA and chooses to ignore the access rules, how can the BCA possibly prevent that or be responsible for it?

On a slightly different note, can anyone clarify the access arrangements for Link Pot and Mistral? They are outside the permit system. The RRCPC Easegill website says that they should be approached via Leck Fell House but says that in practice they may be approached from Bullpot Farm in which case a permit is needed to cross the fell. Is this still true in light of the fact that since CROW crossing the fell is allowed without a permit for walkers and the caves are not on the fell?

 

[Smiley Alan]

I don't see why non-BCA members should assume they have any access to the caves. There are plenty of things in this world that you cannot do without joining the appropriate organisation.

is'nt it becuase they just  want tog o caving ?

Is'nt this problem becuase people are going caving even thogh they hav'nt joined the apropiate organsation? Weather they joined it or not they are going caving so shurely saying  you cannot do it withot  joining is proved tob e wrong ?

 

[dunc]

As for non-BCA members not being aware of the rules, it is a bit hard to imagine how they could not be aware. Most sources of information about the location of caves in Easegill, either on the web or in print, have details about the access arrangements. Isn't there also a sign at Bull Pot Farm detailing the arrangements? The information is not hard to find.

There used to be a sign along with a destination board - neither of which are there (at least not last time I was there or perhaps I didn't spot them)

Is there any intention to replace or improve upon these, as access to Casterton Fell and Bull Pot OTW quite clearly states (CNCC website) the destination board should be used - either it needs replacing or the access wording needs altering.
Could a decent information board not be erected at/near BPF in a visible location, letting walkers know what lies beneath their feet as they trample freely across the fell, alongside a respectable portion of space given over to detailing access requirements to caves - that way letting cavers know (just in case they don't) what the requirements are and may show the landowner that the CNCC/BCA is trying to educate cavers generally (not just those that happen to be members of the BCA), I'm sure they do know already but every little helps and all that. (Maybe as it's SSSI would NE not provide funding for such a sign out of that monitoring scheme?)

 

[Inskia]

If the access agreement is being reviewed..... what if a caver is a BCA DIM but not a member of a BCA club, would it be possible to propose a means by which they could apply for a permit? I'm sure there are a fair number that fall into this category. Not wishing to complicate what's already a rather involved situation, but something for consideration.
I for one would like to see continuing access to the fell for bona fide cavers and hope the situation can be resolved sensibly to suit everyone concerned.

 

[Pitlamp]

That's a fair point Inskia. Bear in mind that I'm not a CNCC official but my understanding is that if 2 or 3 mates who have BCA insurance through individual BCA membership want to call themselves a club they could probably obtain permits. Best check directly though before going to any trouble to organise this.

For everyone else; there is something to be said for having a discussion here about access to places like Casterton Fell but, at the end of the day, the correct place to do it would be at the next CNCC meeting. In my experience CNCC officers are usually very pleased to accommodate constructive comments. Turn up and have your say; I'm sure it'd be welcomed.

 

[badger]

I am not going to add argument to the permit system and cavers not having permits, however I have been at BPF on a Bank Holiday Weekend, when the lane  gets very full with cars, minibus's, Not all of them have belonged to cavers, more than a few have belonged to walkers. And whilst cavers should stick to the access arrangements it seems very unfair to blame it all on cavers, when as many walkers cars can turn up and have access with seemingly no comeback.

 

[dunc]

Badger makes a fair point, not all cars are cavers - I have on a few occasions seen walkers emerging from cars in the vicinity, more so over recent times, CRoW act and more exposure in magazines (I've seen the odd route or two in the area in the very occasional magazine I've glanced in whilst out shopping / looking at websites etc), although to be fair the OP posted that the landowner had seen a significant number of cavers turning up and trampling off up the fell..

Obviously cavers heading up the fell would not be doing Bull Pot of the Witches (not part of the permit system if anyone was unsure), but cavers turning up or cavers cars already parked up might be heading to BPotW or of course going the other way to Aygill, access for which is gained via the same Estate as Leck Fell but a different method of applying for access - confusing, perhaps!