BCA Statement on Casterton Fell Access

[graham]

I don't threaten people, Nig. From what I hear that's what the trespassers do. To landowners an' all.

Any specific examples, Graham? Any firm evidence? Or is this all just hearsay?

None that I'd wish to quote on a public forum. I wouldn't want my sources to feel under threat.

 

[dunc]

Just to pick up on someone else's point above (regarding possible conservation concerns) - earlier this year some of us turned out to support Ray Duffy's excellent work to improve the condition of the paths on Casterton Fell. One direct (and enjoyable) way which we can all continue to support our regional body's access efforts is to turn up at the next Casterton Fell conservation work weekend on 6th/7th October. Yes, it's slightly more effort than tapping a keyboard here but it massively helps caver access and you'll get really well fed (if the last session is anything to go by).

Just got word that apparently this weekend has been cancelled, not for me to go into details, just thought I'd provide a heads up if anyone was planning on attending (which I was, at least one day anyway.)

 

[MarkS]

It seems to me that a single email prior to a trip is hardly a major inconvenience to maintain access to somewhere that the public have no legal right right to visit.

If non BCA-affiliated groups are the major problem then that's a different matter, but I find it hard to jump to that conclusion currently based on the fact that only 9 permits have been issued over 2 months.

In comparison to many other caves/caving areas it seems to be quite an easy way of gaining permission. Obviously this is all just my point of view, but if people disagree strongly with the current set-up I hope they've approached the CNCC about it.

 

[graham]

It seems to me that a single email prior to a trip is hardly a major inconvenience to maintain access to somewhere that the public have no legal right right to visit.

Indeed, but some people think that they have a god-given right to go where they like when they like.

If non BCA-affiliated groups are the major problem then that's a different matter, but I find it hard to jump to that conclusion currently based on the fact that only 9 permits have been issued over 2 months.

I agree, the major problem is affiliated but lazy and/or ideologically driven cavers.

In comparison to many other caves/caving areas it seems to be quite an easy way of gaining permission. Obviously this is all just my point of view, but if people disagree strongly with the current set-up I hope they've approached the CNCC about it.

It doesn't matter how easy it is it'll be too hard for those who want it to be too hard for them.

 

[NigR]

How would you feel if a few coachloads of Northern cavers descended on Swales and simply rode roughshod over access agreements for, say OFD?

How would I feel? Well, I'd be very impressed with the turnout for starters. A couple of coachloads, you say? Fair play to that. If the roles were reversed we'd be struggling to fill a minibus at the moment. Do you think they would like to come and help out at some of our more squalid digs whilst they are down here?

Thanks to Damian for taking the time to respond to my earlier questions.

Good to see a few people finally talking a bit of common sense on here. Top posts from Jackalpup and Tony from Suffolk.

 

[Pete K]

I would like to see discussions that include a way for non club cavers to get permits. We really struggled a few years ago to get into things like Easegill, Leck and various SWales caves. In the end I set up my own caving club with 4 members in order to get permits. We didn't want to join an existing club as we wanted to make our own trip plans as we were all aspirant CICs at the time.
Now it looks like I'll have to be a BCA member for the insurance as a professional caver anyway I don't see why I need to be in a club as well so I'd like to close the Darkside and still be able to get permits.

 

[ianball11]

BCA statement says permit system is under review currently, so get your points of view to them asap.

http://cncc.org.uk/contact_cncc.html

 

[bograt]

I would like to see discussions that include a way for non club cavers to get permits. We really struggled a few years ago to get into things like Easegill, Leck and various SWales caves. In the end I set up my own caving club with 4 members in order to get permits. We didn't want to join an existing club as we wanted to make our own trip plans as we were all aspirant CICs at the time.
Now it looks like I'll have to be a BCA member for the insurance as a professional caver anyway I don't see why I need to be in a club as well so I'd like to close the Darkside and still be able to get permits.

Back in the day, there used to be an organisation called the British Association of Caving Instructors (BACI), we were a constituent body of the (then) NCA, holding a similar position on the council to regional bodies and BCRA.
We also used to cave together as a social caving group and as such also had to pay dues to the organisations who controlled access, CNCC was one.
Perhaps, in the modern caving climate it is time for a similar group to be established to fit in with the BCA format.

 

[damian]

Bograt, The Association of Caving Instructors (ACI) is a Constituent Body of BCA with a seat on BCA Council and all Standing Committees.

 

[bograt]

Sorry, didn't know that, not being in that field anymore.
That being the case, surely this could be a route for Pete K and his mates to access BCA permits?

 

[Pete K]

Something I had not considered. Hmmm, ACI meeting in the next couple of weeks....

 

[peterk]

It seems clear that the permit system, and the rules for caving drawn up as part of the access agreements with the landowners, have not been abided by for many years. So given the almost complete lack of any form of access control over a long period, what has been the impact on the caves and the land thereabouts?

This page from 2002 http://www.rrcpc.org.uk/easegill/text/conservation1.htm has pictures of formations that are no longer there and at http://www.rrcpc.org.uk/easegill/text/conservation.htm is a recent photo of stal being cleaned.  The issues are not new "  Today most of us were sightseers, leisuredly inspecting the wonders of the Promised Land. We laid down tracer tape in the special places where we planned to erect warning notices. It is so easy, when entering new caverns, to rush excitedly over precious crystal floors, doing irretrievable damage in an instant, and so automatic after seeing notices to move slowly and with discretion along the indicated paths, preserving the greater part of the treasure for those who follow."
and
" To us the Ease Gill Caverns are now familiar places, to be treated with the respect due to anything that is unique. Gladly we will show their wonders to responsible groups of club members who will join with us in protecting them from damage in respecting the landowners' wishes (permission to cross the moor had to be sought on every occasion from the gamekeeper, and large parties are not tolerated). If others are as happy as we have been in the Ease Gill Caverns, we shall be well contented." 
The year ? 1951!!! (see http://www.pennine.demon.co.uk/NPC/CUE/AUTUMN.HTM )

 

[cavermark]

I am not going to add argument to the permit system and cavers not having permits, however I have been at BPF on a Bank Holiday Weekend, when the lane  gets very full with cars, minibus's, Not all of them have belonged to cavers, more than a few have belonged to walkers. And whilst cavers should stick to the access arrangements it seems very unfair to blame it all on cavers, when as many walkers cars can turn up and have access with seemingly no comeback.

I went to meet a friend at Bull pot Farm on the weekend in question - had a brew, then took dog and small child for a walk along the bridleway - so that was two cars parked, but not contravening any access agreements.

Out of interest - what do Red Rose members do for access - do they have to get permits too or can they go anytime?

 

[damian]

Out of interest - what do Red Rose members do for access - do they have to get permits too or can they go anytime?

The Red Rose require permits just like everyone else. There are actually one of a small number of Clubs that I am told get regular permits.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

It would be informative to know what the landowners primary objectives are for having a permit system. I understand the advice that such questions may be better raised at a CNCC committee meeting*, however it's very unlikely I'll get to one of those. I also fully accept that we are allowed to cave by the good grace of the landowners and if they want to carry on with the current system then there is no reason for them to change. However when a system breaks down to the extent it seems to have on Casterton Fell, maybe there are better options.

For example if a concern of the landowner is liability, is a permit any better than a prominent notice just inside the cave entrance stating that by entering the cave you agree to indemnify the landowner through appropriate insurance (obviously IANAL, but it must be possible to find suitable wording). Presumably conservation issues could be similarly addressed. This would at least bind the pirates to the same terms as the rest of us.

I also wonder if it is partly about a question of scale. Land owners may be concerned that there will be hundreds of people tramping across their land day-in, day-out (as is the case with walkers on the popular fells). In reality caving is a very much a minority sport and I would guess a busy weekend in Easegill only sees a few tens of people underground.


*but then again we are fortunate to have a single, well run, web forum for cavers in the UK so may be CNCC committee should give this forum some weight in its deliberations?

 

[Glenn]

*but then again we are fortunate to have a single, well run, web forum for cavers in the UK so may be CNCC committee should give this forum some weight in its deliberations?

The CNCC committee is managed by it's full member clubs (the CNCC Chairman, Secretary and Treasurer do not have a vote). If you are a member of a CNCC full member club, speak to your CNCC club representitive to make sure that they can represent your views at the next CNCC meeting.

Cheers,

Glenn
via the Speleo Vercors wifi LAN at La Jarjatte-en-Vercors
www.speleo-vercors.org

 

[NigR]

If you are a member of a CNCC full member club, speak to your CNCC club representitive to make sure that they can represent your views at the next CNCC meeting.

What if you are not a member of a CNCC full member club? Presumably, your views do not matter. With attitudes such as this, is it any wonder that this permit system is failing so badly (and appears to have been doing so for a long, long time)?

 

[Glenn]

If you are a member of a CNCC full member club, speak to your CNCC club representitive to make sure that they can represent your views at the next CNCC meeting.

What if you are not a member of a CNCC full member club? Presumably, your views do not matter. With attitudes such as this, is it any wonder that this permit system is failing so badly (and appears to have been doing so for a long, long time)?

It does what it says on the tin; it's The Council of Northern Caving Clubs

No different to any othe Regional Caving Council.

Cheers,

Glenn
via the Speleo Vercors wifi LAN at La Jarjatte-en-Vercors
www.speleo-vercors.org

 

[droid]

With attitudes such as this, is it any wonder that this permit system is failing so badly (and appears to have been doing so for a long, long time)?

The permit system was/is required by the landowner to maintain access.

Access has been maintained, so the system, though flawed and clearly not to NigR's taste, cannot be said to have failed.

 

[graham]

The permit system was/is required by the landowner to maintain access.

Which is their prerogative.

Access has been maintained, so the system, though flawed and clearly not to NigR's taste, cannot be said to have failed.

It may have been abused but, I agree, it hasn't failed.

Yet.