BCA Statement on Casterton Fell Access

[dunc]

I believe it is the words of;

I should take my part of the blame personally

which clarify Alistairs club information, he isn't in those clubs currently so those clubs can't be black marked for pirating on his part.
Alastair has apologised for his involvement.  As not a member of those clubs he can't apologise for them.

True, but he still went along with what appears to be a club trip (or at least, a club is involved as it is listed, along with his name on the website), regardless of membership status he was part of the trip, so thus part of the problem. I realise Alastair has apologised for his personal actions, which is commendable, although the BCA seems to be only interested in clubs rather than individuals, so as per my previous post the club is involved despite his apology.

 

[droid]

Membership of a caving club isn't like being in a back patch MC club, people CAN act individually, so membership of eg YUCPC (and he's not as old a fart as I am re that club) is pretty irrelevent.

In fact, the whole apology is irrelevent. Learning the problems of pirating, and not jeopardising access agreements by repeating it , that's more to the point.

I'd like to come clean for pirating Maracaibo in 1985 at 3am after a session in the Snooty Fox, with members shortly to be expelled from a University caving club, that wasn't York...

:ang:

 

[Fulk]

I'd like to come clean for pirating Maracaibo in 1985 at 3am after a session in the Snooty Fox, with members shortly to be expelled from a University caving club, that wasn't York...

I say, Droid old chap, you're not taking the piss, by any chance, are you?

 

[alastairgott]

As far as I know the club has also apologised for its involvement in the trip, for which the person who put the trip up on the internet had their own reasons for doing, they have made an apology for this an thus this apology has been included in the club's apology.

If that makes any sense at all everyone involved is sorry and YUCPC as a club will not be using the fell's without a permit.

I, personally, and the whole of YUCPC have been made aware that if they continue to abuse the system then it could cost them ?100's to run trips on casterton and also the fact that their insurance is voided! (you leave the lid off lancaster hole and a sheep falls down you will be paying for that sheep)

 

[droid]

I'd like to come clean for pirating Maracaibo in 1985 at 3am after a session in the Snooty Fox, with members shortly to be expelled from a University caving club, that wasn't York...

I say, Droid old chap, you're not taking the piss, by any chance, are you?

Not entirely.

That trip did take place, in the circumstances described.

 

[graham]

As far as I can see, there are simply two criteria for the issue of permits. One is that there be a free slot, as the number of permits is limited and the other is that they can only be issued to member clubs of BCA. If I am right about this then the whole process should be able to be automated and placed online.

You need a booking page on the CNCC website which shows a diary of available slots. Someone should be able to click on to the slot they require and enter the name of their club. On so doing an automatically generated permit can then be sent to the stored email address for the secretary of that club, as notified to BCA. The permit should include a unique identifier, say a 12 digit code, that could be checked on request by the land agent.

The permit secretary then only needs keep an eye on it to ensure it is running smoothly and keep the list of member clubs and secretary's emails up to date, on notification from BCA. And to clear slots if a club secretary subsequently says they will be unable to use them after all.

The benefit is obvious, clubs planning meets will be able to see at a glance what dates are available and last minute trips will be possible, if a slot is free, as the permit should arrive very quickly after being ordered.

With the diary being visible online, it will also be very easy to see if the system is being abused by any club clearly overbooking.

I'm not sure I've missed anything, have I?

I don't have the webby skills to write such a thing, I can just about manage information pages, I haven't done any interactive stuff at all, but surely there is a caver somewhere in CNCC who does?

 

[dunc]

Sounds like a fine idea. It would need landowners to agree to such a system too though, but surely that method would be seen as doing something positive about the pirating problem?

 

[estelle]

Sounds like a fine idea. It would need landowners to agree to such a system too though, but surely that method would be seen as doing something positive about the pirating problem?

if the landowner is internet savvy in the slightest, the plus of putting this open and online like this surely would be the easiest possible way for him to seamlessly see who's supposed to be there and who not! Plus it having this so open to viewing would make it so easy for clubs to book dates up and know which caves they can look to book on their planned weekends. Personally i think sticking it all online for booking would be a fab idea and would be great if it could be applied to all permit required caves. 

 

[Pete Brookdale]

I was discussing this at the weekend with a mate, you would even be able to use your smart phone to sort permits out if on the day of your planned trip the weather has other ideas so you could just log in and check if your desired permit is available book the permit and hey presto no pirating required. Everybody is happy end of problem.

I think the problem with the Casteron incident is the fact that no permits were issued that day as if there was then the alleged landowner seeing cavers up there would not have been an issue.

 

[owd git]

Alledged landowner??? :-\

 

[NOZ]

I concur with Graham - but this need not be just the CNCC.
All of the other caves in the UK requiring permits could be on the system as well.
No caves would need to be gated as everyone could see who was meant to be at which cave on which day.
That way club cavers can police the pirating.

 

[paul]

It's certainly a good idea, an online booking system, but these things take a lot of time and effort to sort out and maintain going onwards.

 

[ianball11]

Is it the landowner who wants 3 months notice or the cncc?

 

[dunc]

There is no 3 months notice required. As has been said earlier in the thread, permits can be gained at short notice. (I seem to recall needing to apply well in advance a fair few years back, but not now.) I think the only fell where you have to apply very much in advance for is Fountains (and that is the landowners wishes I believe).

Correction; I think it is the preferred method to apply well in advance - however, not everyone can plan their entire year out in one go though..

 

[graham]

No caves would need to be gated as everyone could see who was meant to be at which cave on which day.

Not so, some caves are gated for reasons other than limiting the number of legitimate trips. I have hold the keys for a cave whose entrance is in the middle of a housing estate. Without a gate it'd be blocked else the local kids plummet to their doom on a regular basis.

 

[Alex]

Aye we must waste about 60% or more of our permits in the BRCC due to no one being available or the weather is poor or we found someone else we wanted to go instead. Those permits other clubs could use, which is why I think advance permits are such a bad idea in my opinion, especially for small clubs.

 

[IanWalker]

Fixed my signature, sorry for the confusion.

thanks for clearing that up.

to others - this was a genuine query as the signature clearly contradicted what was said in the post to which it was attached.

 

[alastairgott]

Aye we must waste about 60% or more of our permits in the BRCC

what a wind up!

But in terms of Casterton this is no issue. i've learnt that they need more people booking permits, if there were 5 taken permits every weekend then CNCC would have a valid argument to take to the landowners and alter access agreements.

They can even turn a permit around in 24hrs.

 

[antmcc]

The issue I can still see with Graham's proposal (and the access agreement to a degree) is that I fall into an alternative category as a BCA DIM that I can't access permits, because I'm not part of a club. which, if I can't access permits, the only option available is to 'pirate'. There's furthermore likely to be cavers who aren't in the BCA at all and therefore are a step further removed from permits.

I acknowledge that I could join a club, but not everyone wants to pursue that option, and if all the permits aren't being used, couldn't a system that allows people outside the club structure easier access to 'not pirate' improve the situation for the landowner. i.e. open up bookings for DIMs a month before a date and non BCA members at week's notice (i.e. give the clubs 'first dibs')

 

[graham]

The issue I can still see with Graham's proposal (and the access agreement to a degree) is that I fall into an alternative category as a BCA DIM that I can't access permits, because I'm not part of a club. which, if I can't access permits, the only option available is to 'pirate'. There's furthermore likely to be cavers who aren't in the BCA at all and therefore are a step further removed from permits.

My understanding is that the access agreement does specify clubs, however, I don't see why the BCA itself cannot be regarded as a caving club for this purpose, though there might be a touch extra bureaucracy involved as the permits have to be issued via the secretary.

I acknowledge that I could join a club, but not everyone wants to pursue that option, and if all the permits aren't being used, couldn't a system that allows people outside the club structure easier access to 'not pirate' improve the situation for the landowner. i.e. open up bookings for DIMs a month before a date and non BCA members at week's notice (i.e. give the clubs 'first dibs')

You don't want to join a club. The landowner doesn't want to allow access to individuals, but only to organisations, presumably so that he can have more of a handle on who is on his land and what their bona fides are. As he owns the land, I reckon his desires trump yours.