BCA Statement on Casterton Fell Access

[Ian Adams]

Personally, I would welcome an opening premise of ?open access for all? to be put forward by the CNCC.

The rationale is fairly straight forward in that other communities (walkers for example) already enjoy this privilege and cavers are far fewer in number.

I am fairly sure (not sure) that the BCA?s insurance indemnifies the landowner if the caver is a green/red card holder provided the landowner consents to access.

The issue of non-card holders is obviously an issue but short of gating the entrances I cannot think of any workable method to police non-BCA cavers. In any event, the landowner may still be indemnified under his own insurance or may benefit from the umbrella of CRoW or may not even be liable at all (noting the above test case).

I am not persuaded to restrict access because of any current conservation issues or SSSI issues that I have seen and, in my view, restricting access on these basis would have to have to be supported by some very compelling reason (s).

It?s all just ?a thought? and only a ?basis? to work from ....

Ian

 

[peterk]

Couple of points to make:
If you only grant access to people with a demonstrable competence do you have a reduced liability for "accidents"? - a permit also gives a measure of who,where and when should the landowner wish to partake of his favorite "sporting activities"

There have been a couple of posts about SSSI's and Natural England having no right of access.  A SSSI is created under s28 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 and s51 confers a right of entry and also confers the right to be accompanied by the Police if it is expected that entry may be obstructed.  Am I misreading the act?

 

[martinm]

I am not persuaded to restrict access because of any current conservation issues or SSSI issues that I have seen and, in my view, restricting access on these basis would have to have to be supported by some very compelling reason (s).

I agree with much of what you say Ian. But want to repeat:- a cave being in a SSSI whether or not it is one of the ones being monitored does not affect access. Just the things that can damage the individual site. Ie:- PDO's. Eg:- purposely blocking an entrance. NE actually likes new caves being opened up (as long as the digging was consented) as that can reveal unique and valuable features not found in other sites.

For example:- Titan top entrance and the recent discoveries in Water Icicle Close Cavern in the Peak.

Regards, Mel.

 

[bograt]

The points made by Mel and others  just serve  to emphasise the differences between caving areas, and  show the problem  that BCA has to come to terms with, lets come together and work something out!!!

 

[Gollum]

I find all this access bol**x really funny :read:.
The BCA and all the others involved in gaining access to caves have done an excellent job over the years
If you don't believe me just look at the sh*t job the BCU have done for canoeists.

We don't need cave police and talk about blasting doors off sealed caves. We just need to stick to the agreements and enjoy our agreed access rights (and laugh at BCU :tease

 

[droid]

Just about sums it up, Gollum.

Those that complain about access agreements want to try juggling the needs/wants of the caving community and landowners themselves. Especially given that most farmers have more to worry about than some wierdo wanting to go down a hole in the ground on their land.

 

[Pitlamp]

Fair comment droid.

 

[r_walklate@hotmail.com]

When I first read about this I immediately thought of the bcu and the access situation with rivers, I think though the difference is that the amount of access to rivers compared to the amount of rivers is pretty small. I have had many unpleasant encounters with groups on rivers, I have taken many groups caving and only had positive experiences.
I do wonder whether this is helped by paying a trespass fee, big group big trespass fee more money for landowner?!?!?!?!?
However for me I have a chance to go to these caves I may have to wait and a few phone calls needed but once i have got this chance i don't then need to worry about being abused for giving others and myself a good experience.  So the current situation is good for me and I take hat off to the people who are prepared to liase for access.

 

[alastairgott]

Email apology sent:

Hello Roy, Andy, Damian, David and particularly Les
                                                                        I am writing to you to officially apologise for being on a trip that went into Casterton fell on Saturday the 25th of August. It should not have happened.

I, unlike my trip mates am in a strange but not uncommon situation when it comes to being a member of a caving club. Currently I am between clubs, and therefore do not fully belong to any club. I was a member of York University Cave and Pothole Club where for a period I sorted out insurance. but a year ago I ceased being at university. So I decided to become a member of TSG where i've been a probationary member for 6 months and unfortunately that membership has lapsed. I've moved to Manchester so I have the opportunity to join a Manchester based club but have not done so yet.
So I suppose what i'm trying to say is that I should take my part of the blame personally which is the reason why i'm getting in touch.

[Suggestions to improve access arrangements omitted]

Again I humbly apologise for my actions and promise I will personally not step foot on the fell without permission and will do my best to dissuade others from doing the same. I give you permission to circulate my apologies to the caving community and also to the landowners.


Yours respectfully,
Alastair Gott.

 

[JRL]

Alistair,

A brave step. I commend your actions.

I hope that this bold approach will enable other trespassers on Casterton to come clean about their unpermitted trips.

JL

 

[NigR]

I hope that this bold approach will enable other trespassers on Casterton to come clean about their unpermitted trips.

OK.

Me and Burnley Bob used to go up there all the time without a permit in the late 1970's.

Please can we be forgiven?

 

[SpeleoTrog]

Gollum, if this forum had a "Like" button I'd still be clicking it. I'd keep refreshing the page so I could do it again! Well said

 

[Fulk]

Alistair,

A brave step. I commend your actions.

?? Reads more like a piss-take to me. (And apologies in advance if it was for real  )

 

[damian]

Alistair,

A brave step. I commend your actions.

?? Reads more like a piss-take to me. (And apologies in advance if it was for real  )

Alistair's apology was indeed for real. It was sent to me just before being posted here and followed a request for clarification to his club.

 

[IanWalker]

Currently I am between clubs, and therefore do not fully belong to any club. I was a member of York University Cave and Pothole Club where for a period I sorted out insurance. but a year ago I ceased being at university. So I decided to become a member of TSG where i've been a probationary member for 6 months and unfortunately that membership has lapsed. I've moved to Manchester so I have the opportunity to join a Manchester based club but have not done so yet.

why does your post have a "YUCPC, MUSC, TSG" signature?

 

[ianball11]

I believe it is the words of;

I should take my part of the blame personally

which clarify Alistairs club information, he isn't in those clubs currently so those clubs can't be black marked for pirating on his part.

Im guessing that it was one of those three clubs which put a trip report on the web without having first obtained a permit.

 

[alastairgott]

Fixed my signature, sorry for the confusion.

Thank you Ian for clarifying my message.

 

[dunc]

I hope that this bold approach will enable other trespassers on Casterton to come clean about their unpermitted trips.

OK.

Me and Burnley Bob used to go up there all the time without a permit in the late 1970's.

Please can we be forgiven?

which clarify Alistairs club information, he isn't in those clubs currently so those clubs can't be black marked for pirating on his part.

Why? There is brief information on one of those club websites so the club is obviously involved whether it likes it or not..

Im guessing that it was one of those three clubs which put a trip report on the web without having first obtained a permit

It was two reports online reading the original post by Damian. Alastairs trip was the 25th, not the 18th which this thread was originally related to, so this appears to be additional..


And it says a lot about this forum and peoples attitudes (nothing has changed from the days of uk.rec.) when someone stands up and admits something only to be accussed of piss-taking and having minor details like signatures nit-picked over. 

 

[badger]

perhaps I am missing the point altogether, apart from not having permits to cave on the fell, one of the issues as I read the post was not only said cavers caving , but the issue of Cars. the permit system if I got this right only allows for 2 cars per permit, which means a club could be staying at bull pot farm with no intention of access to the fell, this would essentially fill the space in the car park, meaning anyone else would have to use the lane, therefore restricitng landowners cars/farm machinery gain access to the fell, include those cars that are accessing the fell for walking, hence a problem, and whilst cavers should have the necessary permit, the car parking issues alone can not just be put at the door of cavers without looking at other issues. as a said maybe I miss understood the orginal message, as it to me seemed two pronged not just a permit issue

 

[ianball11]

Dunc, to answer your query about clubs involvement I repeat my earlier quotation from Alastairs Apology.

I believe it is the words of;

I should take my part of the blame personally

Alastair has apologised for his involvement.  As not a member of those clubs he can't apologise for them.