beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community
- Thread starter Keris82
- Start date
Kenilworth
New member
Keris82 said:
Caving is an activity. What do you mean by "the sport"?
Caving cannot die because caves aren't going away and people aren't going to stop wanting to explore them, with or without encouragement. If fewer people go in caves, why is that a problem? If clubs disintegrate, who suffers? If access is lost to anyone, it's their responsibility to regain it if they want it, especially younger generations, who would rather whine than do anything for themselves. You're expecting a "legacy" and the power of a mob to make your activity responsibility-free.
It's not a sport in the competitive sense but is a legacy of all pastimes being called sports back in the day - UK caving expeditions were even supported by the Sports Council.Kenilworth said:
& caves here are in danger of being demolished or filled in by landowners, due to the crowded nature of our isles...
Very philosophical, Kenilworth, and I can't help but agree with you. But Keris82 was primarily asking something else (albeit expressing concern about a dying sport): our experience of interactions with other clubs and groups than our own. And as in all walks of life, experience will depend entirely on which groups you interact with.
nearlywhite
Active member
It's not 'the sport' so much as the community that people are worried about. Our huts, our events, our organisations that help cavers achieve so much more than having to reinvent the wheel. So the 'young people these days want everything for free', 'is nonsense from boomers who had so much given to them anyway.
I think we're in a good situation, but there are quite a few clubs that still keep to themselves. If you help run a club and want to know how to broaden your intake and be more approachable, I (and other members of BCA Youth and Development) are more than happy to help so please do get in touch.
I think we're in a good situation, but there are quite a few clubs that still keep to themselves. If you help run a club and want to know how to broaden your intake and be more approachable, I (and other members of BCA Youth and Development) are more than happy to help so please do get in touch.
Some people have always taken more liberties than they were "entitled" to & others have allowed themselves to be more restricted than the "rules" stipulated, the problem now is that larger numbers are competing for limited resources, so more conflict is almost inevitable. And, as people get more rights they assume they "deserve" even more...droid said:
Kenilworth
New member
nearlywhite said:
Perhaps you are in a good position to help me understand what is being threatened. Let me say plainly what appears true to me:
1. Older cavers, who have worked hard for a long time to establish access, to create, nurture and operate clubs, to push and discover and dig, and to in some sense care for, perceive a decline in the number of new, young cavers, especially ones with the initiative to do the work needed to maintain their cherished and very personal establishment, or with the interest in and appreciation for their "legacy" of work and discovery that makes them feel fulfilled.
2. Younger cavers, who have a great enthusiasm for the act of caving, perceive a decline in the health of the establishment that allows them duty-free enjoyment of their passion.
Both sets express concerns about the loss of the sport or community, but in both cases it boils down to selfishness.
Older cavers should have been acting within the understanding that they would be forgotten, that the caves, the people on hand, the present, were the rewards for their work. It is not wrong to give a gift to future generations, but it is blindness to overinflate the value of what was simply a period of personal recreational activity.
It is not wrong for younger cavers to accept a gift from past generations, but they should realize that the greatest gift is not an establishment but an example of joyful work. If they are ignorant of and uninspired by the past, they have little right to its fruitage. If they understand the best legacy of the past, they won't panic even at the absolute downfall of all establishment, but will go joyfully into work and reward, just another line in the field of time.
It is foolish to call self-motivation and personal responsibility "reinventing the wheel". Caving is simple. The most cumbersome and complex and irriplacable aspects of the so-called caving community are also the least valuable. Everything done by past organizations and individuals could be wiped out overnight and the best and only important things would remain.
It's a hole in the ground.
Go in.
nearlywhite
Active member
Kenilworth said:
I see little point in engaging with someone who has already made his mind up.
Put simply: 1) Access is controversial, a lot of older cavers in times of empire building put these Draconian controls to restrict others exploration of a system to ensure that they'd get the glory and relish in the selfish solitude that features so often in your soliloquies to narcissism. Perhaps this quote will underline my contempt for trope against the 'feckless youth'.
I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint. Hesiod 8th century BC
2. It doesn't boil down to selfishness, it boils down to wanting to protect their community. They express concern and actually try and change things because they want others to experience the joy they had.
Kenilworth
New member
nearlywhite said:
I don't know if I understand all of your response, but I criticize youth and elders equally. To what end is "the community" to be protected? The joy they had depended on themselves, a few of their friends, and the caves. Nothing needs to be changed to protect that joy.
To put more simply the selfishness apparent in this myth of community, these are the things threatened: Glory. Convenience.
Both are unimportant.
Real communities involve careful memory, respect, interdependence, restraint. Caving, both in theory and in fact, requires none of the above. Communities are more than a common interest, more than a club. When they are broken, the homeless parts become a diminished record of what was lost. In the breakdown of a hobby organization there is no such loss.
cap n chris
Well-known member
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.
paul
Moderator
Often when cavers are asked "Why do you go caving?" besides the expected answers "To see the beauties underground", "To maybe find cave passage no one has seen before", "the physical challenge", etc., etc., usually they include "the companionship of others", "the shared experience", "talking about the trip with your pals in the pub afterwards".
For most cavers, caving is a shared experience whether an official Club or just a loose group who cave (or maybe even used to go caving) together.
And this is what they are trying to preserve as well as the caves themselves.
For most cavers, caving is a shared experience whether an official Club or just a loose group who cave (or maybe even used to go caving) together.
And this is what they are trying to preserve as well as the caves themselves.
