beurocracy and exclusivity in the caving community

[Fulk]

Quote from Cap'n Chris:

The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community";

I think that you make a very valid point here; I'm often bemused when people talk about 'The Gay Community', 'The Muslim Community', the this or that or the other community as though gays, Muslims, etc. are homogeneoous groups of people who all think the same and share the same hopes and aspirations.

By the way, in 1695, Robert Russel wrote in A Little Book for Children and Youth (subtitled Being Good Counsel and Instructions for Your Children, Earnestly Exhorting Them to Resist the Temptation of the Devil...):
... I find by sad Experience how the Towns and Streets are filled with lewd wicked Children, and many Children as they have played about the Streets have been heard to curse and swear and call one another Nick-names, and it would grieve ones Heart to hear what bawdy and filthy Communications proceeds from the Mouths of such...

Sounds like a weekend at the caving hut.

 

[nearlywhite]

Real communities involve careful memory, respect, interdependence, restraint. Caving, both in theory and in fact, requires none of the above. Communities are more than a common interest, more than a club. When they are broken, the homeless parts become a diminished record of what was lost.

This is where you are wrong. Thank you for putting an end to the argument. There is a caving community, stop being obtuse and verbose just because you don't want to participate.

Go to a GG winch meet, sing the songs, hell - just actually go to a club and see how many couples and families there are. But never mind, I've been told by a load of armchair activists that my community doesn't exist. I guess I should just stop trying.

Oh no wait I couldn't give a toss

 

[NewStuff]

The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

Now, call me cynical, but you seem to be in a very small minority that thinks in that fashion. This very site is evidence you're wrong. The people we go underground with are more.
A community is what you make of it. It doesn't mean that everyone will get a long all the time, it just means there's a community of cavers/explorers that like going underground.

 

[Keris82]

Often when cavers are asked "Why do you go caving?" besides the expected answers "To see the beauties underground", "To maybe find cave passage no one has seen before", "the physical challenge", etc., etc., usually they include "the companionship of others", "the shared experience", "talking about the trip with your pals in the pub afterwards".
For most cavers, caving is a shared experience whether an official Club or just a loose group who cave (or maybe even used to go caving) together.
And this is what they are trying to preserve as well as the caves themselves.

I couldn't agree with you more Paul. I think most of us would agree that there is a caving community. Look at all the people here. And my partner and I are members of 3 clubs because we want to get the most out of the communities in which we have made friends in this past year.

 

[Martin Laverty]

I would say that it may be valid to talk of a 'caving world' made up of people who value caves, but that world is made up of many communities with different sets of values held in common ('sport' in the sense of enjoyed activity, 'speleology', photography,..). Sometimes these communities can be more or less closely identified with organisations (which is where bureaucracy comes in), otherwise they are ephemeral groups formed through proximity and/or friendship. There are also individual cavers who may interact with organisations or (the bane of organisations) see them as anathema.

I recognise all these from the International body (UIS) which has member organisations from many (but not all, and sometimes with national arguments over representation) countries with caves, to the UK national body, BCA, which has most (but not all) clubs and by no means all individuals who might classify themselves as cavers. This forum is, nominally, UK Caving, but embraces regular posters from the USA, Belgium, and elsewhere, while excluding some earlier prominent posters and officials of caving organisations, while being anathema to many other cavers...

Do the organisations cooperate? By and large, yes, but there are also vicious personal feuds which can, and do, percolate up from individuals (and occasionally groups) to infect and fracture organisations. I would suggest that most cavers have a tendency to anarchy: bureaucracy is aimed at taming this, but it will only work under wise leadership...(cf many other threads)...otherwise organisations fracture (cf history of British Speleological Association, England's first national body).

 

[NewStuff]

As with any community, you have "good" and "bad". Lurkers, and those who hog the limelight. Those with constructive input, and those that want to do it differently. A Community does not mean that all parts must mix in a homogenous mixture, and hopefully we'll never have that thrust upon us.

Example:- My club want naff all to do with the BCA in it's current form, and we believe that that caving/exploring needs to move forwards into the modern era, we also believe that it needs some sort of cohesive "governing" body. There are others that believe the BCA is set on a pillar, immutable, and that funny handsakes and permits in triplicate should rule forever more. We may not agree with each other, we may even vociferously disagree with each other, but we make up 2 facets of the larger UK caving community. There are many more facets to it, we're certainly not the biggest, brightest, or even the naughtiest.

 

[cap n chris]

The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

This very site is evidence you're wrong.

I'm 100% convinced this very site proves the case admirably.

 

[Fulk]

NewStuff: I've no axe to grind re the BCA . . . but I am interested in what you mean by:

and we believe that that caving/exploring needs to move forwards into the modern era

Would you care to expand on this?

 

[nearlywhite]

The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.

This very site is evidence you're wrong.

I'm 100% convinced this very site proves the case admirably.

Everyone else in the thread seems to think you're wrong.

I like this debate style

 

[cap n chris]

Everyone else in the thread seems to think you're wrong.

That may well be true but it isn't the whole truth, however, since this forum does not comprise the totality of the nation's cavers and those that don't visit/use this site, by definition, support my view as correct by their very absence.

 

[JasonC]

Fulk is of course right that it is foolish to talk about a caving community as if it were a homogeneous entity with common views on everything.

But anyone who has been to Hidden Earth, Eurospeleo, CHECC etc cannot doubt the existence of some sort of community of cavers.  When two reasonably keen cavers meet for the first time, they will find plenty to talk about, even to agree on, I'd call this a community.

I think the disagreement come from the different meanings different people attach to the same word - as usual in many heated arguments

 

[cavemanmike]

I've seen"the caving community" change for the better and this is mostly (in my experience)down to younger people getting involved and being pro active.
The old empire building attitudes are falling by the wayside which painters a brighter future for are wonderful sport/pastime/hobby/bla bla bla.
Not that I'm blowing smoke up rodrams arse but I think he's doing a sterling job

 

[nearlywhite]

Everyone else in the thread seems to think you're wrong.

That may well be true but it isn't the whole truth, however, since this forum does not comprise the totality of the nation's cavers and those that don't visit/use this site, by definition, support my view as correct by their very absence.

Quote of the year. 

This is only AN instance of the caving community at work - they can oppose your views elsewhere too. And they do. When asserting something doesn't exist, and given some evidence that counters it, you can't then say but I have an infinite amount of no evidence.

And cheers Mike, I'm just trying to counter the usual defeatist bilge that comes out - people don't realise that it makes my job harder because other people get scared to volunteer because they don't want to have to face the negative grumblings of a very vocal minority. They don't realise they're hurting their own community.

 

[NewStuff]

Would you care to expand on this?

Sure. A lot of the way things are done by and for the BCA (and other aspects of caving, clubs) are firmly rooted in the past. Just because things were done in a particular way in the past and worked, doesn't mean they should continue to be done that way, nor that they still work now. It's changing, but there's still a few that seem to have a mental block that it could possible work any other way than the way it has always been. Sadly, some of those are in a position they can apply a large braking force to the inevitable changes happening. The old ways are still there, in a lot of places, though thankfully less "in your face" than it has been in the past, for the most part at least.

Chris - yet again, I can't decide if you're trolling, drunk, or have a genuine learning difficulty. I'll humor you, just in case it's the latter.
What about this thread "proves" your point?

 

[Fulk]

Thanks, NewStuff

 

[droid]

Do the organisations cooperate? By and large, yes, but there are also vicious personal feuds which can, and do, percolate up from individuals (and occasionally groups) to infect and fracture organisations. I would suggest that most cavers have a tendency to anarchy: bureaucracy is aimed at taming this, but it will only work under wise leadership...(cf many other threads)...otherwise organisations fracture (cf history of British Speleological Association, England's first national body).

This is very true.

I often think that in discussions on this forum, people put more stake on the author of a post rather than the contents.

This ad hominem approach by individuals, elevated to the level of * members of organisations* rather than a self-elected forum, is where the problem lies, IMHO.

 

[cavemanmike]

Good to see a strong positive debate without to many fireworks 

 

[Fulk]

NewStuff: I got broken off while typing my previous post. I figured that I understood what you were getting at in principle, but I was going to go on to ask you if you would be prepared to provide specific examples of what you're getting at.

 

[cap n chris]

There's just one caving community then. So I must be in it. Is this correct?

Or are there many caving communities (e.g. clubs, regions, non-club groups)? Which is it?

Both?

 

[NewStuff]

Fulk - Recent stuff, see Jane/Pegasus resignation letter and the current BCA sec thread.

There's just one caving community then. So I must be in it. Is this correct?

Or are there many caving communities (e.g. clubs, regions, non-club groups)? Which is it?

Both?

Should be rather obvious it's both.