Bolts - What's Best for our Caves?

[Hammy]

Bolt Products
http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.html
Stainless Steel

Seem to be ok, certified EN 959, but need a massive hole and might need a bit of a whack with a hammer to get them in and may or may not be the right grade of steel.

IC Resin Anchor
http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/index.html
Stainless Steel

No certification E959, home made, Heath Robinson appearance, self promoted by some bloke with an axe to grind with the powers that be, small hole.


Titan Climbing
http://www.titanclimbing.com/why.html
Titanium

Certified EN 959, life expectancy 'at least 50 years and expected to last for generations', medium hole, built in Sheffield.


What do people think? What do the Regional Councils think? What does the BCA think?

 

[Madness]

None are perfect.

There are UK Forging Companies that could forge a stainless ring bolt that would be far superior to the 3 you list.

 

[Antwan]

Out of interest, do you have any interest in titan products Hammy?

 

[Simon Wilson]

The IC resin anchor website has been updated with the reports of tests on anchors placed in previously used 12mm holes and on anchors placed in 18mm holes and previously used 18mm holes.

Obviously a hole can only be reused if the previous anchor can be removed without too much damage to the rock.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/3.html

 

[Peter Burgess]

Bolts can be tested by measurement. Resin can be made to specific standards. But how do you measure damage to the rock? Should we pay too much attention to a serious matter when the original query seems to include a judgement on someone's personal integrity?

 

[andrew]

The anchors we use are serious, both in safety and conservation (which is also safety, as we will need to rig these pitches in future)
Lots of people have put in lots of work to get the best solution and for this they should be thanked. Yes mistakes are made, but that is the nature of being human, however, mistakes are compounded and reinforced because as soon as people put heads above the parapet they get shot down personally or by people who seem to have an agenda. It is a good thing to ask questions that will improve the outcome, we should be able to get to a situation that everyone agrees was progressed to in a robust technical manor. There will always be a minority that disagree, but hopefully everyone should be able to agree we got there correctly and be able to live with it. However, all the politics is leading to people becoming disenfranchised. Cavers are a small community we cannot afford to waste effort fighting over personalities.
My solution is to be very open and publish everything, so people can follow the reasoning, or even build up a counter arguments, in the end giving a more robust solution. Having said that, this weekend I was asked if we should publish the findings we had just discovered, my first thought was, omg what a massive amount of flake will follow and I considered saying no (I am sure, people who know me will vouch how exceptional this is) in the end my principles held, it will be published, just give us a few days.
Please let's keep this scientific and get the best solution we can.

 

[Cave_Troll]

how square in section are these anchors? are they suitable to tie directly in to ? and are they going to damage aluminium crabs?

 

[Antwan]

If anyone wants to send me a titanium bolt, a stainless bolt and about 6m of old rope I have a machine at work that moves 500mm backwards and forwards about a thousand times an hour. It would be easy enough to 'tie on' a length of rope for a repeat pull test with a small weight on the other end (about 1 KG? equal to about 20m of rope?)

In one day I should be able to wear test for about 4,000m of simulated rope pull.

 

[Madness]

From an engineering perspective (notice I say 'engineering' instead of 'engineers' as I'm not a formally qualified engineer, I have however worked in engineering for more than thirty years) - I think the IC Resin Anchor looks the most promising.

When I first saw the design I was interested whether the direction of material grain flow would cause strength issues. The strength on the anchor can be proved by testing and I believe that tests have been carried out. The only other thing is making sure that the eye is radiused sufficiently to remove rope abrasion points and enable direct tie in.

From a manufacturing perspective, the ease of production is superior to the other two designs and the chance of variable quality is lessened.

A nice hot forged stainless anchor would be my preference. Has anyone sought an estimate from a forging manufacturer.

http://www.brooksforgings.co.uk/eye-bolts.asp

Not exactly what is needed, but an example of what is already forged in the West Midlands

Oh, I'd better mantion that I have no connection with either the IC Anchor or Brooks Forgings.

 

[Madness]

I forgot to say. Should we not be sourcing bolts from UK manufacturers if they perform comparably and are cost effect when compared to bolts manufactured elsewhere?

Does the BCA have a policy on this?

 

[Simon Wilson]

A number pf people have asked about the radius on the inside edges of the eye. EN959 specifies that radius and the IC anchor complies with EN959. It has a much bigger radius than EN959 requires. Obviously it has to be smooth enough for a rope to run through it. The eye dimensions specified in EN959 are intended to allow for a rope and a carabiner simultaneously.

All that is on the website and has been for a while although it wasn't at first. I put it on the website immediately after the question was first asked.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/2.html

Please keep the questions coming.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Bolts can be tested by measurement. Resin can be made to specific standards. But how do you measure damage to the rock? Should we pay too much attention to a serious matter when the original query seems to include a judgement on someone's personal integrity?

One way of measuring the damage to the rock is to pull an anchor out then put another anchor in the same hole and test that.

I don't really mind Hammy pointing out that I have an "axe to grind" although it sounds a bit negative and it could be put in more positive terms - I have nothing to hide. I hope people have been paying attention for the past ten months and fully appreciate where I stand in the politics of all this.