Boosterism

[pwhole]

India has vaccinated more people than Europe and North America combined, as has China by far. So people need to be a little careful about glib comparisons. Not that will stop people obviously.

These weren't the 'poorer' countries I had in mind - they're doing pretty well compared to many, and have gigantic populations and established industrial infrastructures. And yes, being born here is the most difficult part over and done with. Once you're in, you're laughing, relatively speaking. I think in many ways globalisation really is going to force the issue on us - sharing really is the only way.

 

[Fjell]

India?s vaccine (and generic medicine) capacity is orders of magnitude bigger than the UK?s. Our main contribution is doing R&D, which we have done and disseminated for free. It?s a fruitful combination.

It seems that Novavax is finally going to be approved. That will massively increase production of vaccine that be easily and cheaply distributed. A small amount will be made here, with the vast majority in India.

I think the UK scientific and medical research community has much to be proud of and def deserves a gong or two. As does the government for giving unlimited backing, regardless of their other eccentricities. It?s a model that needs to be replicated and not lost in the noise.

 

[ChrisJC]

And to be frank, when it comes to life and death, I want the vaccine first because I've paid* for it. Once I have had my jabs, then people who haven't paid for it can have theirs.

This is the most depressing thing I?ve read on here for a while. Not sure that I can say much in response (and suspect that PWHole will put it more succinctly). The accident of birth that has resulted in our enjoyment of all that Western Europe provides (in terms of civil society, life opportunities etc) shouldn?t be at the expense of others who haven?t had such luck, should it?

I rather think that is the most honest thing, depressing or not. I am sure most people would look after no.1 if it was a matter of life and death. I am less sure how many people would admit to it.

And I am not disputing how fortunate we all are to even be able to be discussing it.

Chris.

 

[droid]

Chris's comment above is the most honest thing I've read for a while.

And probably very true.

 

[ttxela2]

Yes, I agree entirely with Pwhole and yet I've happily taken both my vaccines and my booster. So Chris is also right.

Perhaps partly because I know if I wrote to the NHS asking them nicely to send my booster to a poorer country so someone could use it as a first vaccine that wouldn't actually happen.

It applies to many other situations unfolding around the world. I often watch the news and think FFS, why doesn't someone just do something, then I think well perhaps I could just quit my job and travel to far flung parts to help - but of course that's not really what's needed and I'd probably end up just using more resources best used in other ways - so perhaps I should donate my savings and sell my worldly goods to help - but not my house of course, I need somewhere to live and worked hard for that, not my motorhome either as I really enjoy our holidays. Oh and I'll need to keep my car to get to work - and I'm really quite fond of my motorbike, wouldn't want to see that go, come to think of it my savings are already allocated to that bathroom refit we're planning....

So I send my text message to donate a tenner and the world carries on pretty much as before...

 

[tomferry]

I hope no one sends my vaccine booster anywhere , they can save a 100 of them for my family before sending them abroad we need them , at this rate my kids will need them and my parents and so on . If I had money to donate I would happily give some to many charity?s , especially them poor donkeys walking up them steps all day I no what it?s like I have been Dinorwig many times ! 

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Read in news about a wealthy nation planning to start distributing a 4th jab (Israel) which made me think of this thread and the disparity between a 4 Jab nation and all the zero jab ones

 

[Tripod]

There was a Channel 4 programme screened around two weeks ago about Covid vaccines. Phizer will not sell its license or allow other countries to produce its vaccine, only selling its product to wealthy nations. The World Health Organisation has described this as "prolonging the pandemic". The cost of manufacturing the Phizer vaccine was also explored and it came in at 76p/dose ("but there are other costs"). The UK is paying more for Phizer vaccine than any other country in the world - currently ?33/dose, having risen from ?18. The UK vaccination led programme is being questioned at home and abroad. Before Omicron came along, conveniently diverting attention for some other issues (we have seen one issue hiding another before) there appeared to be a groundswell developing, questioning the prospect of booster after booster with no end in sight. I heard "no more needles" spoken. We currently have a totally unbalanced approach to managing this part of the pandemic. I find it very difficult to separate the suggestion of corporate and personal profiteering from matters of Public Health.

 

[Fjell]

There is a graphic in this weeks Economist showing where the vaccines have gone. 2.2bn AZ doses to poor to medium countries. 2bn Pfizer doses to rich countries. There is almost no overlap.

Oxford/AZ have said they can deliver a dose for omicron. I would be very happy to get that one instead of Pfizer next time.

 

[Badlad]

A few words from Gordon on this subject...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59761537

"Former prime minister Gordon Brown says the failure to distribute vaccines to poorer countries is a "stain on our global soul"."

"In an interview with the BBC World Service, Mr Brown said the uneven distribution of Covid vaccines "is one of the greatest policy failures of our times" and had been caused by wealthy countries hoarding and stockpiling vaccines."

 

[ChrisJC]

Well I'd be a bit cheesed off if I had donated these vaccines to a poor country only to find them destroyed.

https://www.africanews.com/2021/12/22/nigeria-destroys-around-1m-expired-covid-vaccines/

It doesn't say why they were not used in a timely manner...

Chris.

 

[Badlad]

The BBC article I quoted says the following,

"In Nigeria, some vaccine supplies have arrived too close to their use-by date, and have had to be dumped"

 

[Cavematt]

To pick up a point made by Fjell... the Pfizer adult vaccine needs to be stored longer term at -80oC and only has shorter stability refrigerated (about one month I think). It may be harder to transport and store the Pfizer vaccine in poorer countries at this ultra-low temperature. The AstraZeneca vaccine is stable refrigerated for six months, so much easier to distribute where temperature-controlled logistics are more limited. I am not sure, but this may have some bearing on the global distribution of the various types of vaccine?

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Well I'd be a bit cheesed off if I had donated these vaccines to a poor country only to find them destroyed.

https://www.africanews.com/2021/12/22/nigeria-destroys-around-1m-expired-covid-vaccines/

It doesn't say why they were not used in a timely manner...

Chris.

Avoiding knee-jerk responses.. I genuinely have no idea what's going on and so far nothing I've read on the BBC explains why. In the old days people used to say that good journalism didn't just state the what but explain the why.

Could it be that this is a bad and wasteful country and they don't deserve our help, could it be that our inefficiency and in fighting or greed meant we gave them vaccines about to expire as an insincere gesture or could it be this is actually a small fraction and the news is playing it to an agenda.

Really I've no clue what's really happening with the vaccine dumping photos and mourn insightful journalism as a casualty of the last few years shift to sound bite partisan reporting, it's gradually getting rarer and rarer and the BBC is no exception

 

[Fjell]

There isn?t a decent daily newspaper in this country outside of the FT (and that has it?s narrow focus). You can look at what there is and squint a lot.

The BBC is better, and the most sane is the Economist (which always gets globally ranked as the best) - but it?s weekly. The Economist frequently runs detailed multipage articles on Covid, vaccine progress etc. They are running an excess deaths model you can Google to get an idea of the reality. For example that India has had 2-3 times more deaths than the whole of Europe.

Last week the Economist ran an article on vaccine rollout in Africa. They did radical things like talk to health chiefs in various countries to ask their view. Cutting edge eh? Answer was that covid isn?t their top priority given all the other stuff which kills young people. You get lots of articles here about rolling out vaccines with the overt aim of saving lives in Europe - perhaps we could ship them with equal volumes of malaria vaccine to return the favour?

 

[pwhole]

The tardiness in not vaccinating African countries at the same rate as us will bite us hard in the end, and that's what's so depressing about all this - all of this self-interest is totally counter-productive in the long run, and essentially is racism wrapped inside benevolent corporatism. Black lives matter, as long as they're on a Just Eat commercial, doing a thumbs-up at some spicy chicken wings. 'Oh yeah!' Denying them the infrastructure to develop and progress, when we can give it, is reprehensible, and our 'leaders' are an embarrassment in this regard. So we have to lead them now, whether they like it or not. Or look for another job when they don't.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

It's depressing is an understatement.
So we fail to eradicate polio, leprosy or make much inroads into malaria + dengue fever as it's someone else's problem. But even when it's likely in our own direct interest.. we still dither and play politics.

 

[ChrisJC]

It's depressing is an understatement.
So we fail to eradicate polio, leprosy or make much inroads into malaria + dengue fever as it's someone else's problem. But even when it's likely in our own direct interest.. we still dither and play politics.

I think trying to blame the failure to eradicate Polio on us, and conflating it with racism is frankly offensive.

We have been trying to eradicate it for decades, and have spent an absolute fortune doing so. Rotary International have been trying to do this through fundraising and benevolence for 35 years and still people and governments will not 'do the right thing'
Have a read:
https://www.rotary.org/en/our-causes/ending-polio

But we are of course all racist bastards, and the failure is entirely our fault. 

Chris.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Come on let's be honest about this.
The vast majority of the politicians in this country are above average intelligence and know full well that more lives would have been saved by sending the booster jabs to the poorest countries than using them here.
Arguably that would have been true even for the second doses, and certainly will be true for the fourth.
They also know that a plan to do so would  be political suicide because voters wouldn't stand for it.
I don't just mean Conservative politicians - it's not just chance that the only person making a song and dance about this is an ex politician with nothing to lose.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Racism wasn't anywhere in my thinking, I think we're at crossed purposes here. I'm enormously impressed by and grateful to rotary, and a host of other grass roots charities for local and international causes.
My grumble was specifically aimed at leadership of wealthy nations who make grand promises but fail to follow up