Caving club or learning from training center

[Pitlamp]

In my experience you can learn how to cave perfectly well from a caving club. There is nothing wrong with paying an instructor to learn specific skills of course, if that's what you choose (which I think is basically what The Bitter End is suggesting above). Several of my friends are instructors and they're very good at it. Many are also club members. I suspect most of them would agree that what they offer is better regarded as an adjunct to club membership, not a substitute. Joining a club gives you so much more.

Gollum mentioned the YSS as an example of a good Dales-centred club, which I'd not disagree with. There are others of course. You don't need to join a club in your own area (although you do have good clubs based near you). It's worth considering Dales clubs which have their own hostels because you'll always then have a base to head for on a weekend - this approach gives you several good clubs to choose from. Some of the obvious contenders do have members in your area, so it's maybe worth contacting more than one and asking if they have folk local to you, as this may also bring transport sharing possibilities - and midweek social opportunities as well.

There are so many advantages to joining a caving club apart from just going caving.

 

[prahja]

Looking at your username, I wonder if you plan on diving - if so, joining a club will be even more important for so many reasons...

 

[T pot 2]

Before The bcra, bca, nca, dca and others I ask the same question who trained the trainers ?

 

[Pitlamp]

Looking at your username, I wonder if you plan on diving - if so, joining a club will be even more important for so many reasons...

Agreed - and, separate from this, getting in touch with the Cave Diving Group makes a lot of sense (if you plan to do UK style cave diving from the perspective of a caver). If you do aim to do the latter ultimately, the more caving experience you can get beforehand the better. Good luck and stay safe.

 

[cap n chris]

Before The bcra, bca, nca, dca and others I ask the same question who trained the trainers ?

In prehistoric times who taught people to ride horses?

As a WAG I'd say that before caving training was available it was a case of make it up as you go along and hope not to die from any errors. i.e. learn from your own mistakes, refine, hone and improve. Nowadays it's a case of learning from the mistakes of others and passing on the information in a focused, efficient, direct way. Clubs can do this; many don't, many do.

 

[Pitlamp]

Before The bcra, bca, nca, dca and others I ask the same question who trained the trainers ?

In prehistoric times who taught people to ride horses?


As a WAG I'd say that before caving training was available it was a case of make it up as you go along and hope not to die from any errors.

 

That was probably true in the early Victorian period before caving became established as a legitimate activity. Soon after these early pioneers, like minded people began to come together as clubs (such as the YRC), one major purpose of which was training. Caver training has gone on in caving clubs since before any living person was born.

Cavers becoming private instructors is a relatively recent phenomenon. It's no substitute for routine club caving but can certainly serve a valuable purpose in some circumstances. (Here's one example; I've arranged for groups of youngsters to have a go at caving many times and found it very useful to be able to call on the services of an instructor to pick up ultimate responsibility for safety.  The quality of what they've offered has generally been good.)

At the end of the day the OP has a choice. My advice would be to get involved with a decent club and buy in specific skills training if you feel it's needed. Some clubs have members who are instructors and these often freely give their input to the club's training (or perhaps a better word is "mentoring") of newer members. Whatever you do, caving is a thoroughly enjoyable pastime and I reckon you'll get a lot from it.

 

[T pot 2]

Pitlamp

Thanks for your answer to 'who trained the trainers' you actually took the words from my mouth with your reply.

Looking back it was the clubs that first trained em with not a monetary aim in sight.

Next question which came first the trained trainers or Whernside Manor in order to train trainers ?

 

[ah147]

Looking at your username, I wonder if you plan on diving - if so, joining a club will be even more important for so many reasons...

One of the many reasons I love my club! I must be one of the few divers who routinely has too many people to carry for him!

I remember once I asked round if anybody would be wiling to help me carry. I got two answers so packed 3 dive bags and a rope bag, 9 people turned up at the cave!


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[Pitlamp]

An interesting thought TP2 - but maybe we're starting to drift away from answering the OP's very reasonable question? Possibly this would be worth its own separate topic, if forum members feel it's worth discussing further.

I do know several good instructors and I'm confident that they provide a valuable service in several areas of the richly varied scene which caving has become.  In my experience though, caving clubs are really where it's at.

 

[Pitlamp]

Looking at your username, I wonder if you plan on diving - if so, joining a club will be even more important for so many reasons...

One of the many reasons I love my club! I must be one of the few divers who routinely has too many people to carry for him!

I remember once I asked round if anybody would be wiling to help me carry. I got two answers so packed 3 dive bags and a rope bag, 9 people turned up at the cave!


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Send me an application form!   

 

[ah147]

I think it's cos there's only two of us who dive and one seems to be super human and never in need of help with such mortal things as carrying


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[CatM]

Hi mixedgasz!

As (from a quick skim of the thread) I don't think anyone has made you aware yet, there are two excellent caving clubs based in York itself:

http://www.yucpc.org.uk/

http://www.yorkcavingclub.org.uk/

You do not have to be a student (or even of "student age" - there are plenty of older members still around) to join the University club, we are a very friendly club and all gear and training is provided for beginners. If you want to meet people, you could come along to one of our Tuesday night training sessions.

There is plenty of information on both clubs on the above websites, or I can answer any questions if you have them

Cat

 

[cap n chris]

Whats the best route to learn?  Club or center?

Looks like the answer is "Both". Hope you have a great time learning, get loads of anecdotes and enjoy yourself and the company you meet!

 

[Pitlamp]

Looks like the answer is "Both". enjoy yourself and the company you meet!

I heartily agree. 

 

[cap n chris]

You would do well to try and join a club which has a positive opinion of professional cavers; you'll quickly discover that these very special clubs (and many exist), precisely because they have an open and friendlier attitude, contain a fair number of highly motivated, passionate, dedicated professional leaders and instructors in their ranks - people who have mentored thousands of newcomers and hence are "Pretty good at it"; because of this fortunate circumstance you'll get a greater opportunity to gain training, guidance/advice (often at breath-taking reduction or many times even for free! - it's like a busman's holiday!) while also enjoying the can-do/upbeat atmosphere. The trickle-down of knowledge is very effective. It's a win:win.

 

[Blakethwaite]

I not certain that you'll find professional cavers in either of the York clubs but you will obviously find local cavers with whom to share lifts, go on short notice trips,, quick trips, local trips & even for a pint. Not something that is so readily available for distant clubs even if there are other benefits.

 

[bograt]

There is a third option, here in DCA we have a very pro-active training officer who promotes subsidised training courses for club caving, encouraging clubs to appoint their own training person and offering professional training at all levels to hone their instuction skills, subsidised by BCA.
I don't know if other regions offer this service, but if looking to join a club, maybe you should ask if they have a particular member responsible for training newbies?

I agree with Pitlamp that it is preferable to join a club with a hostel in a caving area, this enables you to make a full weekend of savouring all aspects of the caving experience without the hassel of unnecessary travelling to and from home each day, two days caving and two evenings socialising is by far the best way to develop your caving skills.

To enter into the debate initiated by TPot2 ;

Before The bcra, bca, nca, dca and others I ask the same question who trained the trainers ?

Back in the olden days it was very much a case of teach yourself, you were issued with a log book and told to go away and fill it with a certain number of trips, once you had that number of trips under your belt (without incident!)  you could apply to the NCA for a leadership assessment, administered by their training constituent body, British Association of Caving Instructors (BACI). Usually run at Whernside Manor, then the National Scout Caving Centre, under the guidance of Ben Lyon. If successful you were awarded the Cave Leadership Certificate.
There was a higher award, the Caving Instructors Certificate but as far as I could make out this was pretty much self-awarded by the staff at Whernside and very few were issued.

With the advent of more paid caving instructors (late '70's, early '80's) BACI decided that the system was not fullfilling the market need and the decision was made to re-vamp the assessment scheme.
This was the basis of the current CIC, LCMLC scheme we have today. All the CLC holders at the time were offered the option to upgrade to the new CIC for an "administration" fee of ?40.
I declined the conversion option because I did not approve of the trend towards proffessional caving, after 10 years of voluntary instructing I guess I was happy in my role.

 

[T pot 2]

Bograt
Your last paragraph summed up the point that I was trying to make. I too as you know decided not to follow the instructor route many, many years ago much for the same reasons as yourself.

In reply to the person that sent me a mail

1) no I don't think that professional cavers are only in it for the money

2) some teachers in whatever their positional calling only teach because of the money. The emphasis being on some.

3) the question of passion / dedication is very laudable especially if you enjoy teaching the sport professionally and eek a living from   
doing so
   
4) antipathy between clubs and professionals, did I mention anything of the sort

to conclude

I know and have several professional cave leaders as friends and support them whole heatedly in what they achieve by way of training individuals or groups that wish to experience the sport of caving

My objection at the first off was that if an individual were to join a club the training thereafter would be substandard because clubs do not always have the relevant piece of paper to state that the club is proficient at training in a professional way

 

[Blakethwaite]

I agree with Pitlamp that it is preferable to join a club with a hostel in a caving area, this enables you to make a full weekend of savouring all aspects of the caving experience without the hassel of unnecessary travelling to and from home each day, two days caving and two evenings socialising is by far the best way to develop your caving skills.

Unless you have a lot of full weekends to do with what you will that sounds like a way not to get underground very often to be honest!

Mixedgasz, if you fancy trying caving locally rather than making the two hour trawl over to the Dales send me a PM. Members of the various local clubs (NYMCC, YCC, CMHS) dig in Ryedale every Wednesday night. If you've got an old wetsuit you don't mind trashing & you're tolerant of an excess of swearing, arguing & general abuse it'll make life less miserable. Or at least slightly less miserable.

 

[Joe90]

On a forum like this the OP could be mistaken as Trolling. That's a can of worms just ready and waiting to be opened again.

Personally I started caving whilst working in a climbing and caving centre. I had been caving once before, whilst at school but I didn't like it much. I spent almost all if not all of my earlier caving with the people I worked with, either at work or after work, then coaxing friends to come along too, as there was an ample supply of free kit seeing as I worked in a centre.

I don't see anything wrong with people going through the professional route into the sport, or into the club. As mentioned before, there are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. It will depend on your freedom of time, and spare cash I suppose which you go for as an entry to caving. Almost certainly you will end up joining a club though.....Although I never did.