Caving Gear question

[William_Emmo]

Hi everyone. I’m looking into buying a srt kit and was wondering if people would use a rig descender or a stop descender as I currently don’t know which one I should get?

 

[Badlad]

Hi. I can offer some advice from recent experience. Both are really good devices. I have been using a Rig recently but found it a bit too bulky especially in some of the narrow rift passages of the Dales. The Stop has a much slimmer profile and is less noticeable between pitches. Both offer good control during descent. You may want to compare costs. On balance I'd go with the Stop but either will get you safely down a pitch.

 

[William_Emmo]

Hi. I can offer some advice from recent experience. Both are really good devices. I have been using a Rig recently but found it a bit too bulky especially in some of the narrow rift passages of the Dales. The Stop has a much slimmer profile and is less noticeable between pitches. Both offer good control during descent. You may want to compare costs. On balance I'd go with the Stop but either will get you safely down a pitch.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Edwardov]

I’d suggest a stop, nearly all training material will consider movements with bobbin descenders. So far better to learn best practice with.

 

[wellyjen]

I've not used a rig underground, but friends who have both Rigs and Stops say the Rig is smoother on the rope, easier to lock off, but doesn't like mud; either on the rig, or on the rope. They won't use them in caves where that is a feature. If you're just getting one, then a stop is more versatile.

 

[Pete K]

My usual answer is "it depends on the caver and the caving you do". The Stop is pretty much the universal choice of personal caving descender in the UK unless you like the Simple or Rack non-locking type devices. It's specifically made for caving. The RIG is excellent but as Badlad says, is quite bulky compared to the Stop and is primarily a work at height descender in design. That said, I've been a RIG convert since the first model and have found them a superb tool for both personal caving and leading underground. For most cavers though, the Stop is usually the best choice because it is simple, robust, cheaper, relatively small, and can perform any of the SRT manoeuvres and self rescue techniques that might be needed. The RIG will do everything a Stop does, and sometimes is better, but is big and designed primarily for thicker ropes. They can be quite 'quick' on 9mm Gleistein. My SRT kits are also my working kits, so I tend to just keep the RIG on as it is certified for all those belaying and lowering things I get up to a lot, but I do still reach for my Stop when I fancy a change on a personal trip or I know I'll be on really manky muddy ropes (where the RIG is not so good). The Stop is definitely more controllable on muddy or thinner ropes (8-9mm), with an additional friction krab.
You've obviously got access to Stops at the TSG to try them if you have not done so already. I can probably spare one of my work RIGs for a few days or at least bring one into the Chapel some time for you try out there if you like. It does really boil down to your budget and preference, but I'd generally advise those getting their first kit to go with a Stop for personal SRT use.

 

[Babyhagrid]

I know a lot of people that use simples instead of stops. As it teaches better technique. And the price is a lot less.

 

[alastairgott]

Will, good trip down eldon at the weekend, you clearly enjoyed it. There’s enough of us around with different devices, we can give you a go the next time you’re out caving, so you can work out which would be better for you.

 

[Ian Ball]

I know a lot of people that use simples instead of stops. As it teaches better technique. And the price is a lot less.

How much does the Simple charge for training ;-)


If I were to buy a descender now I would go for a Simple. It is less than half the price of a Stop and has replaceable bobbins for £11 so as long as you don't wear out your plates with a stupid Freino, your first one costs £50 and your second £22. The Stop is over £108 and your second will be £108.

Having said that I learnt caving on a Stop and the idea of having to remember I don't have an autolock is a bit too risky for me

 

[Tseralo]

An auto-locking device has saved my life once, that was enough for me to use one any time I can. I also find a stop much easier to pass relays with the heavy kit as you can tension it up. It's quicker to rig with and way safer and easier to belay someone with when doing exploration.

The new stop bobbins should last much longer than the old ones which evens out the cost if you have to buy several sets of bobbins for a simple over its life.

 

[Pitlamp]

What may swing it for the stop is that IanP on here had some for sale very cheaply recently. Do a search and see if he has any left.

 

[alanw]

What may swing it for the stop is that IanP on here had some for sale very cheaply recently. Do a search and see if he has any left.

“Old” Stops for sale, excellent condition

Excellent condition 4 available £45.00 each Dales drop off or £4.00 P&P

ukcaving.com

"All sold now.", I'm afraid.

 

[Fulk]

Tseralo:

An auto-locking device has saved my life once, that was enough for me to use one any time I can.

Same with me.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Out of probably fewer than 200 cavers (278 views of this thread) two have had their lives saved by an autolock descender.
Throughout a fairly active 3 decade SRT career from the late 80s (very little now, sadly) I must have met and/or caved with hundreds of cavers, a substantial minority of whom used racks, basics, bananas. Plus a couple of Fig 8s and one whale tail that I remember.
I assume that proportion was true for the thousands I never met.
So did dozens of them plunge to their deaths without anybody noticing?
The only serious abseiling injury I saw involved a Stop. On one of the short pitches beyond the duck in Simpsons if my mate had locked off his descender on the rope and then subsequently had to unlock it he would have had hold of the control rope, rather than (we think) his long cows tail.

 

[Steve Clark]

I use a simple if I'm purely following a rigger and won't be de-rigging either. I like the fact I can use my left/top hand on the live rope. This helps with stability being a top-heavy climber and it's very natural. Always a braking krab and very smooth.

I use a rig for everything else. Really nice to rig with. Feels like cheating being able to take in a bit of rope with one hand. Like having an extra adjustable lanyard. It is quite big and I have occasionally used it up on the end of a cowstail (with screwgate krab) to avoid getting stuck.

I've used the old style stop briefly and didn't like the handle. It's much harder to push as a heavier person. The new one is probably much better in this regard but I've not tried it.

 

[ChrisJC]

I use a stop. In fact I use 2 stops as it makes passing rebelays a lot quicker. However, the point is that once I had an anchor point fail on a rebelay and I dropped about 6 feet and swung into the rock. It was completely unexpected, and I have no idea how I reacted. After what felt like a millisecond, but in reality was probably 2-3 seconds, I found myself hanging quite safely in a different position to that I expected to be in.

I am pretty sure that the autolocking feature prevented me from abseiling at great speed to the bottom of the pitch. I cannot be sure about that as I have never repeated the experiment without an autolocking descender.

But the experience has ensured that I will remain forever with an autolocking descender.

Chris.

 

[Tseralo]

Out of probably fewer than 200 cavers (278 views of this thread) two have had their lives saved by an autolock descender.
Throughout a fairly active 3 decade SRT career from the late 80s (very little now, sadly) I must have met and/or caved with hundreds of cavers, a substantial minority of whom used racks, basics, bananas. Plus a couple of Fig 8s and one whale tail that I remember.
I assume that proportion was true for the thousands I never met.
So did dozens of them plunge to their deaths without anybody noticing?
The only serious abseiling injury I saw involved a Stop. On one of the short pitches beyond the duck in Simpsons if my mate had locked off his descender on the rope and then subsequently had to unlock it he would have had hold of the control rope, rather than (we think) his long cows tail.

Seeing as you seem to be insinuating, I'm lying here's the story. Abbing off the top of a Derbyshire limestone crag with a sloping edge. I had a DMM pivot in an extended autoblock. Right at the lip, my feet slipped out from under me and I faceplanted into the wall. Without thinking my hands came up off the rope to protect my face.

Had I skipped the prussic loop at best id have smashed my face at worst id have still instinctively let go and fell 30m which would almost certainly have been fatal.

Also if you have been caving long enough especially if you have been exploring you will have almost certainly had a few rocks whiz by your head. I know my helmet has taken a few lumps of Derbyshire lead mine in the past fortunately always small ones.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

I'm glad you survived.
You don't mention the numbers in my post. Given your own experience, don't you think it's odd that fatalities with non-autolocks aren't very common?

Funny you should mention things falling on people in Derbyshire mine shafts. The heaviest thing to hit me was in Whalfe climbing shaft. Al, of this parish, might remember what it was.

 

[JoshW]

I’m a big fan of teaching people on a simple. I think it teaches good braking hand discipline - “let go of this and you die” - so it gets ingrained so in situations like slipping etc your reactions become not to let go. In the same way that when teaching people to belay climbing I’ll teach on an ATC/pivot/reverso style device

If people then decide to move on from the simple to a stop/rig that’s absolutely fine but they should by that point have those good habits built in.

I now use a rig for similar reasons to Pete (mixed usage of personal abseil and lifelining/rescue etc).

 

[cavemanmike]

Used a stop for year’s then started to use an id for rigging ( probably because I became lazy) and it was easy, I’ve now changed back to a stop as I found the id a bit too big