It's incredibly difficult to say whether simples cause more accidents than stops, as there are no figures as to how many use one or the other. There certainly have been times when a stop has saved someone's life & others where they have "clutched & plummeted", but may have been more likely to tie off a simple. It's all about knowing the strengths & weaknesses of your chosen system (& the fact that the worse rarely happens, but not assuming that is the case). I really don't like the GriGri style handles, now found on the new stop...
Choice of descender (Split from "Falling on Cows Tails")
- Thread starter mikem
- Start date
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I suspect the 'GriGri style handles' will significantly reduce the number of clutch and plummet instances once they are the norm for novice cavers...
(note - every Petzl descender except the old Stop has a big plastic handle now; the one of the new Stop is more like the one on the ID, Rig or Maestro than a Grigri).
If a single rebelay fails just above you whilst ascending then you don't have any choice about that, & if the next anchor is not very far above it, with a generous loop between, then it can produce a surprisingly large shock load.
Does the new stop jam on the rope when you pull too hard on handle, as well as when you let go? The I.D. does, but RIG etc don't (but neither of them are very good on manky ropes). If not then there will still be accidents where people hold onto the handle but let go of the rope...
Does the new stop jam on the rope when you pull too hard on handle, as well as when you let go? The I.D. does, but RIG etc don't (but neither of them are very good on manky ropes). If not then there will still be accidents where people hold onto the handle but let go of the rope...
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
It does not have anti-panic, so (like a Rig and not an I'd) clutch and plummet is still possible.
The difference is (extrapolating from use of a GriGri, I'd, Maestro and Rig here, because I haven't used the new Stop in anger yet) that the handle isn't crap. The handle on the old Stop is basically either on or off with minimal difference between 'stationary' and 'plummet'. That minimal difference makes the clutching much easier. It's also quite hard for people to squeeze for long periods of time, which means that even though they have been told they need to squeeze all the way when descending, inevitably grip loosens, less braking force is needed from the hand or progress slows, surprise happens and a very slight increase in squeezing results in plummet.
On a big-handled device, you use the handle to help control the speed of your descent as well as the brake rope. Thus you get more feedback, which helps with control. Also, tweaking the handle 1mm to the left doesn't suddenly result in a massive decrease in braking force; everything is smoother.
Yes, I'm sure you can still clutch and plummet with a new Stop, but I strongly suspect incidence will decrease. It will probably become more like the GriGri where the equivalent incident (dropping while lowering) does happen occasionally, but given the vastly larger number of climbers it must be much rarer than clutch-and-plummet with Stops which happens if not regularly at least reasonably occasionally (I know at least one person who's done it; I've been on at least one callout that happened as a result, etc.)
I could be wrong - this is just a prediction based on my personal experience. It will take quite a while to show up as well as quite a few current uni club Stops I've seen, for example, are 20+ years old, so it'll be a while before they end up with new ones!
Apologies if this is too far off topic
By "big-handled device", do you include the newer-style Stop? I use one and, in analogy with driving, treat the handle as the 'handbrake' and use my braking hand as the 'footbrake' - by using only the rope as my normal control method, I hope that if I start to lose control, my instinct will be to restore it the same way. When I've had to stop suddenly when driving, I've never attempted to use the handbrake.
pwhole
Well-known member
I found dropping big pitches like Titan on an old Stop positively miserable, especially on fat ropes, due to my hand cramping up long before I got to the bottom. On thin rope it wasn't so bad for the friction, but more terrifying than painful, as I couldn't control it effectively. The famous 8mm Mammut drop (supplied by Chocolate fireguard) was particularly eye-opening as the bobbins were quite worn. Eventually I gave up and got a Banana and Handy braking krab, and haven't looked back - though I could be tempted by a BMS rack if it weren't for the postage costs. But I do use a (new model) Rig for work, and much prefer the downward handle, so probably wouldn't suffer too much on the new Stop.
A bit off-topic, but anyway:
One day many years ago I took a bunch of youngsters who'd done a fair bit of SRT to Rowten Pot, accompanied by their teacher, who was a very competent caver. He asked me to rig the pot and he'd keep an eye on the lads as they took their turn to descend. So I set off down with the rope that the teacher had given me neatly packed in a tackle bag, which he said would just nicely reach the big ledge, and he'd send the rope for the big pitch with the first of the boys to follow me down. Just as I reached the ledge – which was quite slippery – I slipped in the direction of the big drop, and thought, 'No problem, I'll fetch up against the knot in the end on the rope'; just then the end of the rope flipped out of the bag – and to my horror there was no knot in it. I just let go the Stop/rope combination and the auto-lock function kicked in about 2 feet from the end of the rope, with me poised on the edge of the 40-m big pitch.
Needless to say I 'had words with' the teacher as soon as I could get him away from the lads, and he said airily, 'Well, it was packed for transport to the cave, not for use'. 'You might have mentioned that', said I (well, that was the gist of what I said, but rather more forcefully).
One day many years ago I took a bunch of youngsters who'd done a fair bit of SRT to Rowten Pot, accompanied by their teacher, who was a very competent caver. He asked me to rig the pot and he'd keep an eye on the lads as they took their turn to descend. So I set off down with the rope that the teacher had given me neatly packed in a tackle bag, which he said would just nicely reach the big ledge, and he'd send the rope for the big pitch with the first of the boys to follow me down. Just as I reached the ledge – which was quite slippery – I slipped in the direction of the big drop, and thought, 'No problem, I'll fetch up against the knot in the end on the rope'; just then the end of the rope flipped out of the bag – and to my horror there was no knot in it. I just let go the Stop/rope combination and the auto-lock function kicked in about 2 feet from the end of the rope, with me poised on the edge of the 40-m big pitch.
Needless to say I 'had words with' the teacher as soon as I could get him away from the lads, and he said airily, 'Well, it was packed for transport to the cave, not for use'. 'You might have mentioned that', said I (well, that was the gist of what I said, but rather more forcefully).
Mark Wright
Active member
I've always found it a little odd that novices are taught to use Simples instead of a device with an auto-lock facility.Following that example. Dare one say that teaching novices SRT with Petzl Simples is... well.... plain lethal. Yet that seems to be the 'modern' way.
In industry, these days anyway, novices are taught to use an auto-locking device, usually with additional safety features to reduce the likelihood of panic grabbing and ensure safety is maintained if devices are loaded incorrectly.
In the Petzl range the I'D is the tool to use for novices. For experienced, regular users, the Rig is often the tool of choice. It is still an auto-locking device but has none of the safety features that an I'D has.
If I were risk assessing equipment for use in novice SRT caving, where they will only ever have a single point of attachment, a Simple would never even make the short list.
Mark
Mark Wright
Active member
I would have thought the professional caving fraternity would have all the statistics on accidents and near-misses involving the various pieces of equipment and techniques.
I expect someone who has lost hold of a Simple's tail rope at an awkward obstacle during a descent and taken a short fall will have learned a lot about technique. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the 'No Pain No Gain' method of teaching though.
I expect someone who has lost hold of a Simple's tail rope at an awkward obstacle during a descent and taken a short fall will have learned a lot about technique. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the 'No Pain No Gain' method of teaching though.
cap n chris
Well-known member
If they have it would be good to hear the figures (QMC rep?.. anyone?.., anyone?..), however my hunch is that the majority of caving accidents and near-misses on rope will be from another category of caver and unless they are forwarded for collation they would dissolve into distant anecdote.
For what it's worth, I've done an analysis of accidents/incidents attended by CRO and categorized them as follows:
So, Falls whiel abseiling account for 37 out of 730 incidents. I don't know the details of any of these, however – what type of descender, nature of the accident, how serious the consequences, etc.
| Nature of incident | Number |
| Floods | 149 |
| Falls | 136 |
| Overdue / thought missing | 103 |
| Exposure / exhaustion | 73 |
| Lost / light failure | 58 |
| Falls while abseiling | 37 |
| Got stuck | 30 |
| Rock fall | 27 |
| Sump diving | 13 |
| Unable to climb out | 7 |
| Unable to prusik out | 5 |
| Left underground (!) | 4 |
| Trapped beyond rock-fall | 2 |
| Miscellaneous | 85 |
| Died on rescue | 1 |
| Total | 730 |
first-ade
Member
Interestingly, I teach novices on racks and still use one myself. While this is initially riskier, I do feel that it is better at teaching good technique and making sure that they learn to never let go of the dead end of the rope. We mitigate the risk by doing 1 to 1 teaching until they're competent at controlling it.
Regarding loosing control of the dead end while passing an obstacle, I would have thought that this was easier done with a stop or other auto locking device as they require two hands to operate. I believe there were two rescues in quick succession from a cave in Austria (?) due to this where the cavers were only able to use one hand to operate their stop due to a constriction, and consequently had a fall. A rack or simple could still be safely controlled in this scenario. Though I will happily accept that if you do lose control of the dead end, the outcome will typically be worse with a rack or simple.
As for cows tails, I do have screwgates on mine, but I only really do them up when I'm either scared, doing something with more risk than normal (ie also scared), or going to be hanging around for a while. Ultimately, I feel that understanding how your equipment works and how it can fail is more important than using any particular piece of equipment.
Regarding loosing control of the dead end while passing an obstacle, I would have thought that this was easier done with a stop or other auto locking device as they require two hands to operate. I believe there were two rescues in quick succession from a cave in Austria (?) due to this where the cavers were only able to use one hand to operate their stop due to a constriction, and consequently had a fall. A rack or simple could still be safely controlled in this scenario. Though I will happily accept that if you do lose control of the dead end, the outcome will typically be worse with a rack or simple.
As for cows tails, I do have screwgates on mine, but I only really do them up when I'm either scared, doing something with more risk than normal (ie also scared), or going to be hanging around for a while. Ultimately, I feel that understanding how your equipment works and how it can fail is more important than using any particular piece of equipment.
So 5% of incidents were abseiling, would be good if CRO could do a more detailed breakdown to see what common factors were involved. The majority of reports on their FB page that mention abseiling involved sheep!
Out of interest Fulk, over what period was that?
The advantage of using a simple (or other non-locking device) is that you generally have both hands on the rope & in my experience, people rarely let go with both, but regularly let go with one or other, which can be a problem on a handled device.
Out of interest Fulk, over what period was that?
The advantage of using a simple (or other non-locking device) is that you generally have both hands on the rope & in my experience, people rarely let go with both, but regularly let go with one or other, which can be a problem on a handled device.
From CRO's formation in 1935 to 2021. The first such incident occurred way back in the period 1956–-60, but that was a one-off, the next one occurring in 1974, when SRT was just starting to get a hold in the UK. There have been 8 such incidents on CRO's patch this century.
Are there any incidents involving loss of control of a bobbin descender? I use a bobbin fairly often over a Stop when it is narrow or simple (no horizontal rigging). I much prefer actually abseiling with a bobbin and Handy, the control is better and you have both hands. I struggle to use a Stop in things like the Link entrance pitch or narrower and have to put it on a cowstail, which isn’t that great.
The only alternative descender seems to be the Rig, and it looks more likely to get jammed up, is large and is quite expensive.
The only alternative descender seems to be the Rig, and it looks more likely to get jammed up, is large and is quite expensive.
From their website - reason not stated:
Misthreaded mechanical descender:
These are only 2 since website started in 2016, during which time there have been c. 44 cave incidents (not including showcaves). I may have missed a couple as how they are identified has changed during that period, or got a couple too many as some overdues, that got themselves out, are listed as Alerts & others as rescues, also at least 3 were assisting other teams, so also about 5%. However, from Fulk, 28 abseil accidents happened between 1974 & 2000 (when was the stop introduced?) & 8 since include the two linked above. Of course SRT did not exist for first 40 years of existence of CRO & it's been around for 40 years now, so percentage of incidents must actually be higher than 5%
Of the 14 rescues where abseiling is mentioned, 9 were to get to sheep, 1 a dog & other 2 were groups that had abseiled in, but not managed to get back out before call out.
Fulk, it would be interesting to see how that data has change over (maybe 15 or 30 year) periods e.g. 1935-1949 etc
Misthreaded mechanical descender:
These are only 2 since website started in 2016, during which time there have been c. 44 cave incidents (not including showcaves). I may have missed a couple as how they are identified has changed during that period, or got a couple too many as some overdues, that got themselves out, are listed as Alerts & others as rescues, also at least 3 were assisting other teams, so also about 5%. However, from Fulk, 28 abseil accidents happened between 1974 & 2000 (when was the stop introduced?) & 8 since include the two linked above. Of course SRT did not exist for first 40 years of existence of CRO & it's been around for 40 years now, so percentage of incidents must actually be higher than 5%
Of the 14 rescues where abseiling is mentioned, 9 were to get to sheep, 1 a dog & other 2 were groups that had abseiled in, but not managed to get back out before call out.
Fulk, it would be interesting to see how that data has change over (maybe 15 or 30 year) periods e.g. 1935-1949 etc
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Well mikem I've got a chart of 'Trends over time' from which you could work it out yourself ; I have split the data into two sections, one up to 1985 and one from then on, so I'll try and paste them here. I don't know if it will work and, if it does, whether it wil create a huge section in this thread. So, here we go:
; I have split the data into two sections, one up to 1985 and one from then on, so I'll try and paste them here. I don't know if it will work and, if it does, whether it wil create a huge section in this thread. So, here we go: