Choice of descender (Split from "Falling on Cows Tails")
- Thread starter mikem
- Start date
So, falls have noticeably decreased, whilst overdues have increased (but call out times are probably more precise nowadays), as have lost / light issues, abseiling, got stuck & miscellaneous, totals are, surprisingly, not that disimilar
Abseiling incidents are 5 (between 1974 & 1983), 16 (1984-1993 - before majority using stop?), 10 (1994-2003), 3 (2004-2013) & 2 (already mentioned during 2014-2023) - good that they have decreased, but need more info as to specific causes (going off end of rope presumably less common with the availablity of more topos etc). Interestingly the 30 year totals of 21 & 15 are not that different
Abseiling incidents are 5 (between 1974 & 1983), 16 (1984-1993 - before majority using stop?), 10 (1994-2003), 3 (2004-2013) & 2 (already mentioned during 2014-2023) - good that they have decreased, but need more info as to specific causes (going off end of rope presumably less common with the availablity of more topos etc). Interestingly the 30 year totals of 21 & 15 are not that different
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There have been several Stop incidents due to poor technique, but I have never heard of one on a Simple type. I have a feeling the only people using them here are normally quite experienced as people are rarely taught on them in the last 30 odd years in the UK. Certainly not in uni clubs. Data from France would be more appropriate, but I have never got the impression they think it is an issue. The one issue they do highlight is not using a braking krab that the top of the bobbin fits inside.
That's a whole other argument that has been aired various times!
NSS have rescue stats from 1967 to 2017, including a section on testing your descender before commiting to it:
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Samouse1
Well-known member
There are definitely some uni clubs who teach on simples, and the debate rages among the different clubs as to which to train on, stop vs simple. There’s pros and cons to each. Tell you what though, no one teaches on a rack!
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I suspect those clubs have a lot of advantages that mean that they are less likely to have accidents anyway:
1) experienced alumni cavers who do lots of training with the club (and I suspect whether the club uses Simples or Stops largely depends on the opinions of these experienced cavers)
2) better training facilities (in some cases)
3) closer to caves that actually have SRT so they don't only do it once or twice a year
I don't think any of the southern Uni clubs use Simples (based on SCHECC training).
US - lost control on rappel: 7 (1967-76), 10 (1977-1986), 10 (1987-1996), 8 (1997-2006) & 11 (2007-2016), which is much more consistent, but then they tend to use racks, which don't self lock, & generally don't rebelay (UK cavers have definitely had issues but been saved by the loop into belay).
This includes reported incidents that didn't involve rescue teams - the only one during 2015/16 was 11 June 2016 Little Bitterroot Canyon Ice Cave, Montana lost control on rappel, no injury, no aid (novice let go of rope whilst using a figure 8 descender twice!, but grabbed it again before landing). Difficulty on rope incidents in that period included 2 people getting their hair caught in racks & one his beard in a stop, whilst others were equipment problems - a krab crossloaded by a rack & a rope de-sheathing (fortunately none of these were injured or required a rescue team). 3 people were injured, but got themselves out, when a rock used as an anchor pulled out during a practice rescue. So figures aren't directly comparable.
This includes reported incidents that didn't involve rescue teams - the only one during 2015/16 was 11 June 2016 Little Bitterroot Canyon Ice Cave, Montana lost control on rappel, no injury, no aid (novice let go of rope whilst using a figure 8 descender twice!, but grabbed it again before landing). Difficulty on rope incidents in that period included 2 people getting their hair caught in racks & one his beard in a stop, whilst others were equipment problems - a krab crossloaded by a rack & a rope de-sheathing (fortunately none of these were injured or required a rescue team). 3 people were injured, but got themselves out, when a rock used as an anchor pulled out during a practice rescue. So figures aren't directly comparable.
Go for it. Starting to remind me of Gravity.
My one is looking at a someone about to step off the top of Alum from the tree with their Stop nicely locked off. I quietly reached over and moved their Stop from the plastic gear loop to their maillon.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
I've seen this with the dyneema gear loops on the new superavanti. It held body weight but led to a very quick changeover
French rescues since 2001 (note that most recent is only linked on right hand side, not main list yet):
www.speleo-secours.fr
They break annual reports down differently again (2 of the deaths were skiers):
10 were members of the FFS & 11 weren't cavers (doesn't say how many of remaining 16 were from other countries)
Historique des secours - Spéléo Secours Français
www.speleo-secours.fr
They break annual reports down differently again (2 of the deaths were skiers):
10 were members of the FFS & 11 weren't cavers (doesn't say how many of remaining 16 were from other countries)
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cap n chris
Well-known member
I have witnessed, and done this, similarly. Different location; same result if intervention hadn't occurred, doubtlessly, though. Experienced cavers never cease to alarm the living jeebeebebuss outta me occasionally.
HeathJ
New member
For the sake of completeness: YUCPC teach ~30 new freshers a year on racks. Primarily for the reasons mentioned by first-ade above, but also because they happen to be what the club has and replacing them all with simples would be very expensive! When compared with a simple I do think racks allow a slightly larger margin for error in terms of dead rope control, and have the added advantage to lots of friction adjustment which comes in handy with particularly small or large students
JasonC
Well-known member
After giving up on my ancient Caving Supplies rack, and trying to get used to a Stop (old-style), I gave in to temptation and got one of these (short frame, 1 hyperbar). It was $88 + $31.41 carriage, working out at £81.19, which isn't a lot more than a Petzl rack. Only used it once so far, but I liked it a lot. In case anyone else is similarly tempted...
MarkS
Moderator
As a student I learned SRT on a Petzl rack (YUCPC!) and soon switched to a Simple. I used that for over a decade before deciding last year that it was all (frame, bobbins, handy) too worn out and needed replacing. I like the ability to abseil with one hand (don't like any Stop-style descender) but didn't like how unforgiving a Simple would be should you lose control on a descent. I opted for a BMS rack and really rate it as a happy medium.
JasonC
Well-known member
From https://www.innermountainoutfitters.com/, but not based on a lot of research - you don't get to find the carriage charge until the last stage of checking out, so it could be that other outlets are slightly cheaper.