Choice of descender (Split from "Falling on Cows Tails")

[Fjell]

A long time ago I found a rack too annoying to lock off and use for rigging. I also run the rope through a Stop when rigging anything difficult/horizontal, which is pointless with a rack. Also bent the eye on my last Petzl rack. So ended up using a Stop on very long drops, which was interesting at times.

We have a new Stop as well as a collection of Stops and Simples up to 30 years old. None have ever been an issue.

One issue I do have is the new Stop has no published data on a dynamic test. Only the 800kg static test. I suppose it is comforting it didn’t shear the rope at 800kg, but it would be nice to know what happens in a FF1 at least. Does it slide and absorb force?

Which leads me to the Rig. It has some very interesting test data. The shock loads with 9mm are half of that with 11mm. Now I realise that it is rated for 10mm+, but Petzl have been quite keen on testing it with 9mm. Does this mean it is Petzl AutoPlummet on 9mm? I have never tried it.

Static and dynamic tests on the RIG - Petzl Other

www.petzl.com

 

[i think it goes]

From the perspective of a student club, we generally teach people on a simple as its what we have the most of and its...simple. We are lucky enough to have a climbing wall to teach them their first srt sessions on so they're belayed down their first couple ~10m pitches whilst learning to use the device safely and have at least one person checking them over at all times. It seems to work.

I have seen people with 'bad' technique getting away with it using an old style stop but when they switch over to a different descender (even a more worn stop) they really struggle and put themselves in danger. Not saying that's the norm but seems to be my experience.

Also simples are relatively cheap and our club doesn't get much funding from the students union so budget is a big factor when purchasing and servicing kit. Which is a bit sad but that's the reality of it. It would be very nice to have everyone on a new style stop for the versatility and safety of it but that's not the way it goes unfortunately.

 

[hannahb]

In the past I used to teach people with whatever descender they were borrowing, typically a Stop (Durham Uni). Following advice and lots of thought and reading, I now put a karabiner through the hole that locks the Stop handle in and makes it behave like a Simple until the person is comfortable controlling their descent with the rope. If I have the chance I also belay them on a separate rope for the first couple of short descents. I have found a marked improvement in people's technique when they eventually move onto using the handle, and they seem to pick it up quicker, and be able to lock off and undo the lock more reliably. I would recommend this way of teaching based on my experience. It doesn't add a lot of time and might ultimately make the training a little quicker.

Relatedly, when I learned to do SRT, with a Stop, I knew that I should squeeze the handle in all the way and use the rope to brake and stop. I have always found that challenging on even moderately long pitches (guess I should get to the gym and do some hand exercises 🤭) so I switched to a Simple a few years ago. Aside from it being quite annoying for rigging (I'm not a very confident rigger) and the occasional thought about what would certainly happen if I got knocked by a rock or just fumbled the rope (as others have mentioned), I definitely prefer it. But I wouldn't recommend it to someone not totally comfortable with SRT because of the greater risk of getting it wrong - I would recommend something with a handle.

 

[pwhole]

Which leads me to the Rig. It has some very interesting test data. The shock loads with 9mm are half of that with 11mm. Now I realise that it is rated for 10mm+, but Petzl have been quite keen on testing it with 9mm. Does this mean it is Petzl AutoPlummet on 9mm? I have never tried it.

I've used a new model Rig on 9mm Gleistein with no issues whatsoever - gripped it fine when it had to, and a lovely descent.

 

[Tim Pickering]

I'm following this with interest as I am wanting to replace my old Stop before the year is out. I find the handle digs into my palm so feels more bruisy than achy. I like the look of the new Stop as that would eliminate that problem but I'm also tempted by a rack. Me being me, though, always 'worst case scenario' guy, I worry about situations such as being knocked-out or having some other emergency that renders me unconscious on the rope. Another thing I don't like about the Stop, is, as others have mentioned, needing two hands. It makes me feel less in control

 

[andrewmcleod]

I recently discovered I could operate the handle on my Rig with my elbow in a tight squeeze (albeit my Rig's Freino is clipped into a 10cm sling on my central maillon, so your elbow length may vary).

Failing that, you could always use an Italian on a cowstail, or put your descender on a cowstail, if you have some form of locking carabiner on them...

 

[JAshley73]

Just read this thread with intensity, as my recent trial-use of a Petzl Stop have really convinced me of bobbins.

It seems the consensus is that the Stop- style auto-breaking bobbins offer an extra layer of protection, in the event of a rockfall disabling the climber. (Rock to the head, or arms/hands, etc..) Additionally, extra protection for "new" climbers as well.

The flip side, is that a "Simple" bobbin allows the use for both hands to work the braking end of the rope.

Do I have that right?

I currently have a Petzl Stop we've been playing with at home on the practice rope. Am considering a 2nd device for myself.

 

[Samouse1]

Just read this thread with intensity, as my recent trial-use of a Petzl Stop have really convinced me of bobbins.

It seems the consensus is that the Stop- style auto-breaking bobbins offer an extra layer of protection, in the event of a rockfall disabling the climber. (Rock to the head, or arms/hands, etc..) Additionally, extra protection for "new" climbers as well.

The flip side, is that a "Simple" bobbin allows the use for both hands to work the braking end of the rope.

Do I have that right?

I currently have a Petzl Stop we've been playing with at home on the practice rope. Am considering a 2nd device for myself.

That’s the long and short of it! Personally I started caving on a stop and then switched to the simple. I find I have more control over my speed on the simple compared to the stop.

 

[JoshW]

I much prefer teaching people on a simple.

I find it teaches much better technique/brake hand discipline (similar to using a tube style/atc type belay device when climbing). Having two hands on the braking line actually gives a smoother descent for beginners I’ve found.

It takes a bit more attention needed when people are just starting, but it’s time well spent in the long run.

As @hannahb said, for the first couple of descents maybe worth using an additional backup line, or having enough rope that you can keep them in a ‘loop’ if they were to start an uncontrolled descent.

i find myself hanging around in fixed spots a lot of the time (plus ladder and lifelining on occasion) so i use a rig (viva la rig).

 

[Tritim230]

Absolutely. I swear by my bobbin on all ropes. A descent braking krab arrangement on new 8mm and 9mm recommended. Very easy to both single or double lock. Only ever used my rack on monster pitches where I can't lift the weight of the rope up! Never used an autolocking device after a fall on a Lewis descender back in 1983 (remember those with the giant handle?), that I grabbed in panic mode. Fortunately at a training session in a sports hall but I still managed to fracture two vertebrae. So, always super cautious underground....

 

[mikem]

Of course you'd be "lucky" if the rockfall only hit you & didn't sever the rope

 

[Babyhagrid]

Of course you'd be "lucky" if the rockfall only hit you & didn't sever the rope

The Pwll Dwfn Incident | Croydon Caving Club

www.croydoncavingclub.org.uk

Lucky indeed

 

[JAshley73]

Of course you'd be "lucky" if the rockfall only hit you & didn't sever the rope

Well, I guess there'd be nothing I could do about a rockfall severing the rope, regardless of other variables. An event like that - Just a divine appointment as far as I'm concerned. I'll glady use caution when & where I can, but I'm not going to fuss about something like that...

 

[mikem]

I'm just saying that it's not actually a sensible reason to choose one over the other. It is indeed unlikely, whilst clutch and plummet happens far more often than rockfall

 

[paul]

Are there any recorded incidents of cavers being saved by an Autolock descender (Petzl Stop or other alternatives) after being knocked unconscious?

 

[andrewmcleod]

Are there any recorded incidents of cavers being saved by an Autolock descender (Petzl Stop or other alternatives) after being knocked unconscious?

I know someone who would have abseiled off the end of the rope (no knot) except that the Stop caught him (presumably he instinctively released the handle when the rope disappeared out of his hand).