CNCC democracy

Bottlebank

Bottlebank

New member
Kay,

I'm sure you're right. The problem seems to be that according to the minutes from the 2007 AGM there are eight members on the committee, now according to the Agenda there are fourteen, including the CNCC TG (I haven't double checked but I think that's right).

This has got people asking, given there seems to have been no vote in between, how they got there, and should they be eligible to vote.

Tony

 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Kay,
Thankyou for taking part in this forum and for answering the questions that you are able to answer.

You have been copied in on some of the emails between me and the CNCC officers so you know that I have asked the question about elections repeatedly.

There is a list of the committee in the 2007 minutes which does not include CNCC TG or Elysium and there has never been an election since then. Therefore the clubs that Treasurer, the Secretary, Access Officer and Training Officer represent have never been elected.

I'll send them another email and ask them to explain.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
For a few weeks now I have been trying to get the list of CNCC full member clubs. This is only the names of the clubs and is information that should be available to all members.

Below in full is the last of several emails between me and the CNCC officers about the list.

[gmod]E-mails deleted as permission has not been granted for their reproduction here.[/gmod]
 
graham

graham

New member
I am no expert (no laughter from the cheap seats) but I don't think that data protection arguments would apply simply to a list of clubs, rather than individuals.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
graham said:
I am no expert (no laughter from the cheap seats) but I don't think that data protection arguments would apply simply to a list of clubs, rather than individuals.
Click to expand...

I'm certainly no expert but, stepping completely aside from any of the issues being discussed in this topic, I'm alarmed by the idea that someone feels it's OK to post peoples' private emails on a public forum. Is this really the way we want this forum to go?
 
graham

graham

New member
Question:

If a member of an organisation is not allowed to know who the other members are, how can they know whether any vote taken at a general meeting is valid?
 
Bottlebank

Bottlebank

New member
While Les may be right in what in says about publishing the idea that the CNCC should not be able to publish a list of member clubs on it's site is farcical.

Can anyone come up with any justification for not wanting your club name to appear on a members list? It certainly can't be justified by Data Protection.

Equally refusing a club rep that information seems wrong.

Perhaps the clubs should simply be given notice that a list will be published and that if they don't like they may wish to revert to Associate Membership status.

I think Les has been forced into trying to defend the indefensible, not a great position to be in.
 
molerat

molerat

Member
As it stands, some clubs will turn up at the AGM without knowing whether they will be able to vote or not.
 
Ian Adams

Ian Adams

Active member
graham said:
Question:

If a member of an organisation is not allowed to know who the other members are, how can they know whether any vote taken at a general meeting is valid?
Click to expand...


Very good question .... How, indeed, can a "democratic body" even exist if neither those inside the body or those outside of it know who they are?


Ian
 
Bottlebank

Bottlebank

New member
Also begs the question did the clubs concerned realise they were sending reps in that couldn't/wouldn't make such a basic decision, in fact it's hardly a decision, without referral?
 
Glenn

Glenn

Member
I am replying to this specific question only.

CNCC knows who it's full member clubs are, to suggest otherwise is just scare mongering. What is being discussed here is the reluctance of CNCC to release information to someone who consistently publishes private information on a public forum, without the permission of those clubs (which we are still waiting for) especially with the knowledge of the Tim Allen letter that appears to be being circulated to all BCA member clubs.

 
Glenn

Glenn

Member
Hi Nig, I am replying to your specific question.

I will be making (in abstentia*) the usual statement that I make at each AGM, and have done since 1995; I am prepared to stand as Treasurer for the following 12 months if no one else is prepared to take on that role. Usually no one comes forward.

*I will not be at the 2014 AGM. Last October I became carried away with the pre-winter Easyjet sale and bought seats to Grenoble at ?20.00 a seat, but they only fly to and from Grenoble on Saturdays, and I did not have a 2014 diary, and completely forgot about the AGM. Apart from nightmares on the M6, I think this is the first meeting I?ve missed for many years.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Glenn said:
I am replying to this specific question only.

CNCC knows who it's full member clubs are, to suggest otherwise is just scare mongering. What is being discussed here is the reluctance of CNCC to release information to someone who consistently publishes private information on a public forum, without the permission of those clubs (which we are still waiting for) especially with the knowledge of the Tim Allen letter that appears to be being circulated to all BCA member clubs.
Click to expand...

I made it very clear to the CNCC officers that I was requesting the names and only the names of full member clubs to be given to me and me alone as a committee member*. The names of member clubs is not "private information". It is already public because any full member club's name will be in the minutes somewhere. What is being kept secret by the officers is the current list which will not include those clubs who have left. How much more secretive can this lot get?

* They claim the EPC is a committee member in the (fictitious) 2014 list.
 
Simon Wilson

Simon Wilson

New member
Pitlamp said:
I'm certainly no expert but, stepping completely aside from any of the issues being discussed in this topic, I'm alarmed by the idea that someone feels it's OK to post peoples' private emails on a public forum. Is this really the way we want this forum to go?
Click to expand...

Pitlamp,
I would be with you on that if they were private emails but they weren't private. They were emails between a CNCC committee member and most of the CNCC officers and therefore official CNCC business which should be able to be made known to all members. When Les wrote those emails he could have expected them to appear on this forum because I had previously posted a similar email exchange. Furthermore, this whole series of threads is very much about me and others exposing the secrecy in which the present CNCC operates and Les is very much aware of that.

The email below was the next email I had from Les and was sent soon after I posted his emails on here. Is it a private email? I am wrong to put that on here?

[gmod]E-mail content deleted. Simon: General internet etiquette is that e-mails are private and should not be reproduced on a public forum without permission of the sender. Please stop doing so.[/gmod]
 
R

robjones

New member
Do the other regional caving councils make available, either on t'interweb or in hard copy, lists of member clubs? Ditto BCA?
 
bograt

bograt

Active member
robjones said:
Do the other regional caving councils make available, either on t'interweb or in hard copy, lists of member clubs? Ditto BCA?
Click to expand...

Interesting point, I suspect the "Privacy of Information Act" is relevant, so a direct request to the respective regional body would be more appropriate.
Otherwise, ask the club who they are related to!.
 
martinm

martinm

New member
robjones said:
Do the other regional caving councils make available, either on t'interweb or in hard copy, lists of member clubs? Ditto BCA?
Click to expand...

Yep. (See Simon's post.) Most councils have an open policy on this. (No personal details mind.) It's helpful for anyone who might want to contact and maybe join one of the clubs. Just had a look round the CNCC web site and as has been mentioned there's nowt....  :thumbsdown:
 
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