Concreting Drws Cefn
- Thread starter NigR
- Start date
Dave Tyson
Member
Neither so far. NRW rejected the original design as unsuitable as it was more to do with excluding cavers rather than allowing bats to enter. A less obtrusive design has been posted which allows bats to pass and may be opened for rescues etc.todcaver said:Hurts my eyes reading through 46 pages of tiny text :blink:
Or just being lazy !
What was the outcome ? Gated or concreted
Dave
David Rose
Active member
What depressing news.
Drws Cefn is an entrance on CROW access land into the longest cave in Wales. It's quite a tough excursion in its own right, and very few people use it. The cave beyond remains in excellent condition, and trips to its far reaches are still a demanding proposition.
Late last year, as forum readers will remember, there was a threat of a judicial review of the failure by NRW to accept that CROW applies to caves. It didn't go anywhere because this refusal didn't constitute an administrative decision that could be reviewed in court. So the status quo - the cave staying open; no one being harmed - has persisted.
Until now. At a time when the BCA has a clear mandate to campaign for the recognition that CROW does apply to caves, a small group that does not accept that majority view has drawn up new plans to block Drws Cefn.
I know some of these people. Indeed, while I abhor their stance over this cave, I would call them my friends. But this is outrageous. divisive and wrong. It is certain to provoke intense opposition, including possible legal action, and reopen a disproportionately bitter row over Drws Cefn that, for a few months, had gone to sleep. Fleur, Chris, Pete: what are you thinking? Please, withdraw these proposals, while you still can.
Drws Cefn is an entrance on CROW access land into the longest cave in Wales. It's quite a tough excursion in its own right, and very few people use it. The cave beyond remains in excellent condition, and trips to its far reaches are still a demanding proposition.
Late last year, as forum readers will remember, there was a threat of a judicial review of the failure by NRW to accept that CROW applies to caves. It didn't go anywhere because this refusal didn't constitute an administrative decision that could be reviewed in court. So the status quo - the cave staying open; no one being harmed - has persisted.
Until now. At a time when the BCA has a clear mandate to campaign for the recognition that CROW does apply to caves, a small group that does not accept that majority view has drawn up new plans to block Drws Cefn.
I know some of these people. Indeed, while I abhor their stance over this cave, I would call them my friends. But this is outrageous. divisive and wrong. It is certain to provoke intense opposition, including possible legal action, and reopen a disproportionately bitter row over Drws Cefn that, for a few months, had gone to sleep. Fleur, Chris, Pete: what are you thinking? Please, withdraw these proposals, while you still can.
Clive G
Member
David Rose said:
Well, I hope we're still friends, too!
Even though the proof copy of 'Beneath the Mountains' that you had just received from the publishers was going to be given to me in return for that very tough trip we did together in May 1987, all the way to the bitter end of Perseverance Passage in Daren Cilau - provided we made a significant new discovery - and we didn't! I've no idea how you made it safely back to work at The Guardian on the Sunday, whilst I was having a nice recovery rest at the Hard Rock Cafe! I think you were going to make use of the showers at work to get the mud and grit off your face and out of your contact lenses!
The point I've made about CRoW access to caves is that there are certain managed caves and show caves which need protection, given CRoW is going to be satisfactorily demonstrated to cover the act of caving via Open Access land.
In South Wales the longest cave systems are managed caves: OFD, Dan-yr-Ogof, the Llangattock Caves and Ogof Draenen.
Now, Fleur, Chris, & Pete don't act as individuals, which is the opposite as to where many of the above comments in this thread are coming from, but act as part of a group which is comprised of people who have explored, made discoveries in and are still interested in working in Ogof Draenen - in one way or another. Group decisions are often different than the individuals within the group may have chosen in their own right, but group decision making can also have strengths which rise above the knowledge and viewpoint of single individuals.
If people are at odds with the decision to leave Drws Cefn in existence as a way into or out of Ogof Draenen, but to put a bar in place so it is only used for authorised purposes during an emergency, then they are also objecting to a significant compromise which has been made, away from the original proposed 'Concreting Drws Cefn', as this thread is titled.
When people are not prepared to accept a compromise then I ask myself: "WHY?"
Is it because they are seeking to wrest control of a significant managed cave from the caving body that has been formed to carry out the management task on behalf of the landowner(s) and all cavers?
Why is the existing access and management scheme for the cave system considered unacceptable?
Does this mean if CRoW is applied to all caves on Open Access land then other managed caves will also have to accept new entrances via that land - counter to decisions taken by the managing bodies and/or show caves concerned - or face a volley of verbal disgust in response?
What does this say about the people objecting and campaigning?
I'd argue here in favour of accepting the decent compromise now presented and also obtaining the required confirmation of free and open access to all caves under CRoW, that are not managed caves or show caves (with or without entrances on Open Acess land).
David Rose
Active member
I do remember being rather fatigued when I arrived at work that distant Sunday - with time enough to spare to have that essential shower. Did that dig ever go?
I feel embarrassed that I made that a condition of giving you the book. You had kindly invited me on an exciting weekend excursion that I still remember vividly.I should have just given you one. Alas, I have very few copies left (I think only two) so I'd be reluctant to give you one now, although it is available for free on the OUCC website
http://www.oucc.org.uk/btm/beneath.htm
So to Drws. My point now is that this entrance is barely used. The occasional trip that takes places is doing little or no harm to anything or anyone. The fact that it's open (though not easy to find) has taken the heat out of the situation. Why not just leave things as they are, and let this particular somnolent hound sleep on?
I feel embarrassed that I made that a condition of giving you the book. You had kindly invited me on an exciting weekend excursion that I still remember vividly.I should have just given you one. Alas, I have very few copies left (I think only two) so I'd be reluctant to give you one now, although it is available for free on the OUCC website
http://www.oucc.org.uk/btm/beneath.htm
So to Drws. My point now is that this entrance is barely used. The occasional trip that takes places is doing little or no harm to anything or anyone. The fact that it's open (though not easy to find) has taken the heat out of the situation. Why not just leave things as they are, and let this particular somnolent hound sleep on?
Brains
Well-known member
Some good points there. My instant thoughts are why are so many caves managed in the first place. I think by now we have realised that a gate alone doesnt do much for conservation without a leader system. Natural obstacles like the 'Cilau entrance crawl, or artificial ones like access through a show cave appear to work well.
If the PDCMG are doing such a good and inclusive job for cavers, why cant I buy a decent high quality survey of the system? Why was there the impetus to have to create extra entrances, and why are so few cavers actively enjoying the system? Discoveries seem to have been few in the recent past as well. AFAIK lots of tape has been installed to protect the cave, but from who? It is in danger of becoming a backwater no one is bothered with, which no doubt will preserve the cave wonderfully at the expense of anybody going there
If the PDCMG are doing such a good and inclusive job for cavers, why cant I buy a decent high quality survey of the system? Why was there the impetus to have to create extra entrances, and why are so few cavers actively enjoying the system? Discoveries seem to have been few in the recent past as well. AFAIK lots of tape has been installed to protect the cave, but from who? It is in danger of becoming a backwater no one is bothered with, which no doubt will preserve the cave wonderfully at the expense of anybody going there
Clive G
Member
David Rose said:
I've got an important meeting to head off to at BECTU HQ - the British Entertainment History Project AGM - so barely time to reply!
However, I'd have been most embarrassed if we had found something and I'd taken your author's copy of the book off you! It would have been entirely mean of me because it belonged to you! Nevertheless, it was an exciting point in time for both of us. And, no, the passage still ends today where we left it in the 1980s! I think the name is very appropriate and was originally suggested - before the passage was discovered - by Pete Smart misnaming Preliminary Passage!
In the end I managed a 'free' copy shortly after the book was published through my mother winning a voucher for ?100 (or so) worth of books from Foyles in London. Along with other family members, she invited me to select a book for myself and 'Beneath the Mountains' was the one I chose!
And I'd still like you to turn it into a signed copy for me - whenever the opportunity should arise!
Alex
Well-known member
I expect this to be ignored like all my other posts but it may explain why I have never been a fan of gates of leader based systems:
My main issue with a leader system is that it spoils one of the best aspects of caving which is exploration. I hate being led about caves, I want to explore on my own, perhaps push that one passage that people before me have never bothered going down. To me being led around a cave is akin to being a tourist not an explorer so for me that situation is never acceptable, I don't want to be just a tourist gorking at formations I want to explore.
That's also why I dislike gates where the keys have to be filled out by filing forms in triplicate, sending them money and waiting weeks to find out, that is another obstacle for the main aspect of caving which is exploration and this cave, this cave is still to be explored. Please stop putting barriers in the way. Perhaps the owner wants it locked because someone dug it without his permission but maybe a better compromise is a good will trespass fee to access this entrance not a bar that can never be opened except in emergency. (Even if I would likely fit under it). Still blocking the entrance with an easier to remove obstacle is no compromise it still is blocked!
Conservation reasons? - Is it fair to punish the many for the actions of the few?
My main issue with a leader system is that it spoils one of the best aspects of caving which is exploration. I hate being led about caves, I want to explore on my own, perhaps push that one passage that people before me have never bothered going down. To me being led around a cave is akin to being a tourist not an explorer so for me that situation is never acceptable, I don't want to be just a tourist gorking at formations I want to explore.
That's also why I dislike gates where the keys have to be filled out by filing forms in triplicate, sending them money and waiting weeks to find out, that is another obstacle for the main aspect of caving which is exploration and this cave, this cave is still to be explored. Please stop putting barriers in the way. Perhaps the owner wants it locked because someone dug it without his permission but maybe a better compromise is a good will trespass fee to access this entrance not a bar that can never be opened except in emergency. (Even if I would likely fit under it). Still blocking the entrance with an easier to remove obstacle is no compromise it still is blocked!
Conservation reasons? - Is it fair to punish the many for the actions of the few?
royfellows
Well-known member
Alex said:
This says a lot in a few words.
An old saying occurs, "Whatever you like to do there is always going to be a few people who will spoil it for the rest of us" or similar words
That's if everyone lets them
PeteHall
Moderator
Alex said:
Completely agree. Caving is by its very nature about exploration.
Not everone will agree though. Many "club cavers" seem more than happy to be lead on trips by other club members, so no real difference to a cave with a leadership system.
One day, I hope to explore Draenen, but like many, I am put off by all the politics. Maybe in a few decades it will all have blown over and we can get on enjoying the cave.
alastairgott
Well-known member
PeteHall said:One day, I hope to explore Draenen, but like many, I am put off by all the politics. Maybe in a few decades it will all have blown over and we can get on enjoying the cave.
Crack on and do it now, I went in almost 2 years ago, we only got past Indiana highway (as we went the wrong way at cairn junction and saw some very impressive [well preserved] cracked mud floors).
But still I'd go back as it gives you a thirst, not only to see more but a real thirst from how dry it is in there!
The pub being a, welcome and convenient, post caving treat.
droid
Active member
PeteHall said:One day, I hope to explore Draenen, but like many, I am put off by all the politics. Maybe in a few decades it will all have blown over and we can get on enjoying the cave.
It almost inevitably blows over eventually. New landowners/cavers and the situation resolves itself.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Two of us did the round trip in the early days. Hadn't a clue where we were some of the time. Nice easy run down to Rifleman's is a good trip.
The good news is that Drws Cefn is still open and has not been concreted. The bad news is that the PDCMG are still hell bent on permanently closing the cave by whatever means they can get away with. The following item is included in the retiring Secretary's report due to be presented to this coming Sunday's meeting:
"As mentioned before the postponed meeting, feedback for the "light touch" closure of Drws Cefn was not well received by NRW. It was felt that we were receiving rather contradictory advice from the organisation who had not supported a hard solution on grounds of potential changes to airflow, but yet had not then supported a much more open approach, seemingly on the grounds of fear of vandalism. As a result it was suggested that placement of a surface grille, entirely in keeping with the bat workers manual and other best practice, may be the best solution and may not require licensing. A proposal along these lines will be brought to the meeting for discussion and potential approval before any further work proceeds in this area."
Loosely translated, this is what Fleur is saying:
NRW know full well that if they give approval for this (or any open cave on access land) to be blocked then it will immediately trigger a full scale judicial review (something they very wisely wish to avoid at all cost). Hence they initially turned down the PDCMG's preferred "hard" option - a massive reinforced concrete wall blocking the entire passage, built to last forever and a day - and then told them not to bother applying for a license for a "light touch, more open" approach - a steel scaffold bar across the passage concreted into solid buttresses on either side. So now the PDCMG will have to make do with a mere grille on the surface, concreted into place all around.
This latest option will, of course, have the same desired effect as the earlier ones: closing the cave for all eternity and denying cavers entry to the longest system in Wales via a perfectly good entrance on Open Access land.
This action is being taken in accordance with the PDCMG's avowed "Single Entrance Policy", something which has been ruthlessly enforced ever since the cave's discovery in 1994. The second entrance was concreted back in 1999 and the PDCMG have been trying to do the same to Drws Cefn for the last eight years. Presumably, they will seek to inflict the same fate upon any further entrances that come their way.
The hope, no matter how slim, still exists that sanity might yet prevail.
If it does not, then all I will say is this:
Better get those mixers up and running right this minute 'cos you will need an awful lot of concrete!!
"As mentioned before the postponed meeting, feedback for the "light touch" closure of Drws Cefn was not well received by NRW. It was felt that we were receiving rather contradictory advice from the organisation who had not supported a hard solution on grounds of potential changes to airflow, but yet had not then supported a much more open approach, seemingly on the grounds of fear of vandalism. As a result it was suggested that placement of a surface grille, entirely in keeping with the bat workers manual and other best practice, may be the best solution and may not require licensing. A proposal along these lines will be brought to the meeting for discussion and potential approval before any further work proceeds in this area."
Loosely translated, this is what Fleur is saying:
NRW know full well that if they give approval for this (or any open cave on access land) to be blocked then it will immediately trigger a full scale judicial review (something they very wisely wish to avoid at all cost). Hence they initially turned down the PDCMG's preferred "hard" option - a massive reinforced concrete wall blocking the entire passage, built to last forever and a day - and then told them not to bother applying for a license for a "light touch, more open" approach - a steel scaffold bar across the passage concreted into solid buttresses on either side. So now the PDCMG will have to make do with a mere grille on the surface, concreted into place all around.
This latest option will, of course, have the same desired effect as the earlier ones: closing the cave for all eternity and denying cavers entry to the longest system in Wales via a perfectly good entrance on Open Access land.
This action is being taken in accordance with the PDCMG's avowed "Single Entrance Policy", something which has been ruthlessly enforced ever since the cave's discovery in 1994. The second entrance was concreted back in 1999 and the PDCMG have been trying to do the same to Drws Cefn for the last eight years. Presumably, they will seek to inflict the same fate upon any further entrances that come their way.
The hope, no matter how slim, still exists that sanity might yet prevail.
If it does not, then all I will say is this:
Better get those mixers up and running right this minute 'cos you will need an awful lot of concrete!!
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
PeteHall said:One day, I hope to explore Draenen, but like many, I am put off by all the politics. Maybe in a few decades it will all have blown over and we can get on enjoying the cave.
Seconded. I will not go down Draenen as the current access situation is a national embarrassment and I am not happy with the idea of going in either entrance. I would not want to give validity to the current PDCMG mess by applying for a permit, but I don't want to go in the second entrance either where a sensible access arrangement has not been made (but I totally understand the point of view of people who do either of those things and I do not judge them).
Fair comment, Andrew and I respect your viewpoint. When you say "the second entrance" am I correct in assuming you mean Drws Cefn, which is in fact the third entrance (the actual second entrance was concreted shut by PDCMG in 1999)? If so, I can assure you that we did everything in our power to come up with any form of access agreement (never mind a sensible one!) but PDCMG would not budge a single inch. CSS had met with precisely the same response to their entrance at the Nunnery and, in retrospect, we were foolishly optimistic to think we could have done any better. Believe me, this organisation is impossible to deal with in its current form!
It is indeed a great shame that you feel unable to visit Ogof Draenen at the present time and you are clearly not alone: during a 23 week period extending from early spring until the end of August a mere 16 parties recorded their trips in the original entrance logbook and there was never more than a single party in the cave on any one day. Absolutely appalling figures for a system 70+km in length no matter how you try to view them!
It is indeed a great shame that you feel unable to visit Ogof Draenen at the present time and you are clearly not alone: during a 23 week period extending from early spring until the end of August a mere 16 parties recorded their trips in the original entrance logbook and there was never more than a single party in the cave on any one day. Absolutely appalling figures for a system 70+km in length no matter how you try to view them!
alastairgott
Well-known member
NigR said:
You say that Andrew is clearly not alone. Yet you quote figures for spring and summer.
Firstly, what is the significance of a 23 week period? it's not 5 months and it's certainly not 6 months.
Secondly, spring and summer are slack months for caving. If you touch base with pretty much any club with a hut in the country they will tell you that they're less busy in these months.
I'm not sure how your figures compare with the three counties, I'd estimate that there were probably more trips into the three counties. (by a sheer guess on the permitted caves, I'd say treble).
However, without the figures I cannot comment, but if the figure were only treble (68 trips). For the amount of entrances they would be absolutely appalling figures.
