Concreting Drws Cefn

[NigR]

The figures are for a 23 week period because that is the time since the pages were last changed in the logbook when a friend of mine checked them for analysis.

"Official" figures will in all probability be announced by the PDCMG Permit Secretary at Sunday's meeting. Based on past experience, there will have been a spate of trips in the weeks prior to the meeting and the party line will be trotted out that "visitor numbers are on course to meet the yearly average" or somesuch. This happens every time (in some years the figures have been conveniently massaged by directing traffic from events such as student gatherings into the cave).

The reality of the situation at Ogof Draenen is that hardly anyone ever goes down there, quite possibly for the same reasons outlined by Andrew earlier. For example, in another thread on this forum the trip to Dollimore's via the Last Sandwich was described as a "trade route". Well, visits there average out at about one per month at best: busy trade route isn't it?

 

[Rhys]

The figures are for a 23 week period because that is the time since the pages were last changed in the logbook when a friend of mine checked them for analysis.

"Official" figures will in all probability be announced by the PDCMG Permit Secretary at Sunday's meeting. Based on past experience, there will have been a spate of trips in the weeks prior to the meeting and the party line will be trotted out that "visitor numbers are on course to meet the yearly average" or somesuch. This happens every time (in some years the figures have been conveniently massaged by directing traffic from events such as student gatherings into the cave).

The reality of the situation at Ogof Draenen is that hardly anyone ever goes down there, quite possibly for the same reasons outlined by Andrew earlier. For example, in another thread on this forum the trip to Dollimore's via the Last Sandwich was described as a "trade route". Well, visits there average out at about one per month at best: busy trade route isn't it?

Serious question; Do you truly believe that visitor numbers are actually massaged? Why on earth would anyone do that? Who gains? What would they gain?

It seems like a paranoid conspiracy theory to me.


Rhys

 

[royfellows]

It seems like a paranoid conspiracy theory to me.

This is a general comment, not one necessarily relative to the thread, but intended as a 'reality check'

The word "conspiracy" more often than not included in a sentence with words such as "paranoid" or similar.
Conspiracies are very real, they happen, and anyone who cannot immediately think of one of several that have been blown open cannot be following the news.

 

[NigR]

Rhys,

Yes, I do believe that visitor numbers have been massaged in the past. Obviously, it is the PDCMG who stand to gain most from this in terms of credibility. In reality, many cavers (as exemplified by Andrew and Pete above) have been put off visiting Ogof Draenen due to the toxic nature of the political situation brought on by the intransigence of the PDCMG over the years. As you might recall, we used to have a string of counters throughout the system to keep track of caver traffic (and were heavily criticised by the PDCMG for doing so, despite it being a very useful tool). Nowadays, we just don't bother: there would be so few hits that it simply would not repay the time and effort involved.

 

[Stuart France]

Chris Densham, the OUCC representative, presented a bird?s eye view diagram of the PDCMG?s latest idea for blocking Drws Cefn to cavers at their meeting last weekend, seeking approval.  Although it shows a removable bar, he said that ideally nobody would be given a key to it. View it at www.caveaccess.co.uk/draenen/drwscefngrilleproposal.jpg

Unfortunately nobody but myself in the PDCMG meeting was familiar with the Commons (Wales) Act 2006 which states:

?A person may not, except with the permission of [the Welsh Government], carry out any restricted works on land to which this section applies.  Restricted works includes those having the effect of preventing or restricting access to or over land? and in particular fencing? or works for the resurfacing of land.  Works are for resurfacing if they consist of laying concrete?  This applies to [all] common land.?

PDCMG would also need planning permission from the Brecon Beacons National Park Authority.

As bats are accessing Ogof Draenen through Drws Cefn, as well as some other entrances in this general area, I find it hard to see how NRW could possibly fail to insist that PDCMG also need to possess a ?bat licence? in order to block a cave in such a way as the bats cannot fly freely through a new grille at an entrance.  This is the case because horizontal bars imply vertically downward bat flight, as per dropping something through a drain cover in the gutter at the side of a road, and horseshoe bats simply don?t fly like that.

NRW have already declined to process a ?conservation? bat licence made for this site, on the grounds that cavers using Drws Cefn do not pose any threat to the bats.  The PDCMG?s only other option is a ?development? class licence which is assessed against the IROPI criteria (imperative reasons of overwhelming public interest).

It is patently clear that there isn?t a cave conservation problem as the entrance has been open since 2010, after the gate disappeared, without consequences arising.  The number of cave visitors keeps falling: only 165 people in the past 11 months according to figures tabled at the PDCMG meeting.

It is hard to see how preventing cavers from using a cave entrance for reasons of a personal belief in ?wilderness preservation? or some such abstract idea could possibly be in the public interest.

With only 180 visitors per annum spread being across a 80kms cave system, say, it is a wilderness already with little chance of meeting anyone outside one?s own group.  The longest cave system in Wales is amongst its least visited.

 

[royfellows]

A point of interest re a 'bat licence'.
CMT had to obtain one from NRW prior to phase 2 of Cwmystwyth underground works, replacement of the second tube with the steel road. This was additional to the SAM consent covering all the works.

 

[Ed]

doesn't all the guff refer to "single entrance"  --- if the y are being so pedantic ---- no mention of multiple exits.

One way trips - in via the entrance out via any exit

 

[NigR]

One way trips - in via the entrance out via any exit

What if some of the entrances had to be rigged first? Wouldn't be possible to just exit then, would it? In any case, if the PDCMG had their way there would be no other entrances to exit from; they would all be blocked or concreted.

 

[Badlad]

Any chance of a debrief on the meeting as a whole either publicly or by PM.  With my BCA hat on I do like to keep abreast of developments at Draenan as they may have possible implications to wider access issues.  I guess the minutes will take some time.

 

[NigR]

Minutes will hopefully be out earlier than usual as they have already been written up and sent to the new Secretary.

In brief, the meeting was generally better natured than might have been expected (particularly in view of recent developments) and there are grounds for cautious optimism. There is some new blood amongst the Officers (congratulations to John Stevens for finally getting there at the fourth time of asking!) and this augurs well. I am hopeful a more realistic attitude might begin to emerge in the none too distant future and this will certainly be of benefit to cavers everywhere.

Check out Stuart's previous post for a recap of some of the legal aspects discussed. I will be adding to these and covering several other specific topics in due course.

 

[Stuart France]

Any chance of a debrief on the meeting as a whole...

To add a bit more flesh to the bones perhaps I can add that the 165 visitors for the previous 11 months was the figure tabled by Sue Mabbett (i.e. the permit secretary who just retired and became the group's new secretary instead of Fleur Loveridge) was only for the PDCMG's logbook which is located about 15 minutes into the cave from its original gated entrance.

In the ensuing discussion on these lowly figures at last weekend's PDCMG meeting, those present speculated on how many more cavers are actually using Ogof Draenen who either chose not to sign the PDCMG logbook, or they had used one of the ungated entrances that don't have logbooks.

We recapped on the experiments carried out by myself some years ago that about 90% of cavers actually sign their logbook.  People were detected using my counters on dates that did not correspond with any logbook entries.  There are so few people using the cave that a little transgression of not signing the logbook stands out in counter data when there is seldom more than one group in the cave on any one day, even at the weekends.

We then tried scaling up that 165 logbook figure to 180 to extrapolate from 11 to 12 months, and we added in the imagined people who didn't sign the logbook even when they had walked right past it.  So our best estimate is therefore 200 visitors per year currently via the main entrance.  Impossible to say what the grand total including traffic via other unmentionable entrances might be.  The elephant in the room was of course these other entrances.

Mick Day, retiring chairman of 20+ years, didn't ever say a lot, leaning forward on his elbows with his chin in his hand much of the time, perhaps contemplating how things had come to be like this as he leaves that role.

He was not alone.  Several other leading figures said nothing or almost nothing throughout the whole 5 hour meeting.

 

[rhychydwr1]

Merci mawr, a five hour meeting 

 

[NigR]

During the course of the meeting, I tried to leave the NRW rep (Christina) in little doubt as to our intentions on the legal front should NRW be misguided enough to actually issue a bat licence to the PDCMG to aid them in their quest to permanently close Drws Cefn to cavers. Should this occur, we will have no hesitation in immediately invoking a full scale judicial review, the purpose being to clarify the law regarding CRoW and caving once and for all. We have already taken extensive (and expensive!) expert legal advice on this and are confident we would win.

Regarding the other "ungated" and "unmentionable" entrances quoted in Stuart's latest post, I would like to make it clear that this would naturally be the case with these too (so long as they are on open access land, of course). PDCMG and NRW, please take note.

 

[Stuart France]

NRW?s belief that the CROW Act does not apply to caving, thus framing its policy and advice to the public accordingly, remains a legitimate target for a Judicial Review initiated by cavers.  But people should not neglect commons law either.

The Law of Property Act 1925, section 193, says ?Members of the public shall, subject as hereinafter provided, have rights of access for air and exercise to any land which is [an urban] common?.  The hereinafter means you can?t camp, light fires or drive a vehicle including bicycles on commons.

Air means air. Exercise means exercise. Air and exercise thus includes caving.  Most of the footprint of Ogof Draenen is urban common and thus within the ambit of s.193.

Commons laws are a nightmare for anyone wanting to prevent access to caves because of the inclusive ?air and exercise? phrase, plus the ministerial consent needed for groundworks and changing of access arrangements.  See the Commons (Wales) Act 2006, section 38.

Defra has already lost a court case in which they argued that riding a horse on a common was not "air and exercise".  The judge decided it was, and added that tobogganing, having a picnic, picking wild berries and flying a kite were also examples of "air and exercise".  Pity he didn't mention caving too, but it's enough.

All members of the public have a right to apply for a court order to enforce the removal of unconsented works within the meaning of s.38 and the restoration of the land under s.41.

So, in practice, anyone ?Concreting Drws Cefn? or doing something similar should anticipate enforcement action.

The issues above were given an airing in the marathon PDCMG meeting last Sunday. PDCMG said they were going to come to considered view and report back at their next meeting in six months or so time.  We are thus not at the stage of putting anyone on notice.  I hope not.

 

[David Rose]

I intend to write a summary very shortly of recent events at Draenen for the next BCA newsletter, including the current state of of moves to block Drws and emerging awareness of the state of the law, as discussed above.

Please would someone - preferably from PDCMG - who disagrees with Nig and Stuart contact me so I can quote their view?

Either PM me, put up a post, or send me an email. Fleur Loveridge and Chris Densham both have my email address.

Otherwise my report is, inevitably, going to look a little one sided. It would be helpful if someone could get back to me by the end of Monday.

Many thanks.

 

[Rhys]

I intend to write a summary very shortly of recent events at Draenen for the next BCA newsletter, including the current state of of moves to block Drws and emerging awareness of the state of the law, as discussed above.

Please would someone - preferably from PDCMG - who disagrees with Nig and Stuart contact me so I can quote their view?

Either PM me, put up a post, or send me an email. Fleur Loveridge and Chris Densham both have my email address.

Otherwise my report is, inevitably, going to look a little one sided. It would be helpful if someone could get back to me by the end of Monday.

Many thanks.

David

I would advise contacting PDCMG directly for input rather than relying on a post here.

Rhys

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

This does sound like the very worst soft of nonsense imaginable.

Is it about caving, or is it about power?

 

[Ship-badger]

We all know it has nothing to do with caving.

 

[Stuart France]

Last Sunday I listened for many hours to mainly one person prattling on in a torrent of words about blocking up Drws Cefn, the widening of Last Sandwich, some unstable boulders in Midwinter Chambers getting sorted out that had not had the consent of PDCMG to move:  this that and the other that offends him.

But not everyone now on the PDCMG is in favour of blocking Drws Cefn.  There were a few changes of personnel at the election meeting last Sunday, and more retirements than just Fleur?s.

I do hope those of the new people joining the PDCMG plus those of the remaining people who are against the blocking up of cave entrances will come together in private and end this nonsense where one lot of cavers are trying by all means they can muster to prevent cavers in general from going caving throughout the biggest cave in Wales, encouraging responsible exploration and discovery.  We need the dawn of a new era.

It is perhaps a bit optimistic to think that the ?alternative viewpoint? within PDCMG will get their act together by Monday and BCA?s October newsletter deadline, so let?s not be harsh on them collectively.  We're also going to air this in Cambrian Caving Council's October newsletter.

It will be best settled by an outbreak of common sense and goodwill, not by imposing a solution through an enforcement action against PDCMG later in court.  PDCMG is on the wrong side of what is now national policy that has been supported by an overwhelming majority of cavers.  PDCMG is long overdue a huge re-think.

It?s also taken a very long time, but the BCA has finally decided ?to believe that CROW applies to caving and to promote the widespread acceptance of this idea?.  Or words to that effect.  Minutes of their October council meeting are eagerly awaited.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I find it quite incredible how "going down a hole" and everyone being of a similar mindset can result in such non-hole-related-tittle-tattle.

I remember my caving club days and the people were a good bunch, but mention silly subjects and they all turn on each other.