County Pot ropes
- Thread starter hannahb
- Start date
Please can you be more specific?
I can't see any problem with them. Point 6 is a statement of CNCC policy with regard to anyone removing dangerous or abandoned ropes, and seems clear to me, point 7 is just a sensible warning which is valid in any cave where there's no physical restriction on access.
Stu
Active member
6. The CNCC supports any cavers who choose to remove a rope that is confirmed to be dangerous or abandoned (no problem so far) and not in use by anyone presently underground... (you'd better be bloody sure!).
7. Anyone leaving a rope in a cave should do so expecting that others may use that rope (no problem so far, usual caveats re: use at your own risk) or that it could be removed at any time by well-meaning individuals... (well-meaning individuals better be bloody sure!).
For me it needs stating that the risk of removing a rope from a cave has serious implications and a precautionary principle of leave well alone until a local consensus has come to agreement that no one is still in the cave at which point get the knives out.
And before common sense comes into it, it's clear from some people's post that they see leaving/removing County Pot ropes as equally valid in terms of what common sense is.
If it's worth stating, I don't mind the ropes in County but equally not fussed if they're gone.
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
My personal opinion on these County ropes (and I agree it is not a black & white situation): I personally liked having the in situ rope in County, and would like one to still be there. It's not that I 'can't' rig my own rope, but it saved a good bit of time not having to rig one before a Lancs - County through trip and I liked that convenience.
However, I believe that whoever installs a rope has the right to remove it at any point. In this case, I believe it was the RRCPC who installed the rope & then removed it, so I fully support their decision to do so. I'm also very grateful that they installed one whilst WR was 'out of order' and also for the advance notice about the County rope removal (especially important during fresher season).
Having said that, I would also support an individual deciding to place a new in situ rope there, on the basis that they accepted responsibility for checking it & removing it once it became unsafe or unusable. I think in situ ropes should have a tag on them with the date they were placed in the cave and the date of the last 'check up', and people placing them there should check them so that they can be removed when necessary. I also think in situ ropes should be treated on a case-by-case basis, including ease for through trips as one of those factors.
The benefit of the County rope is that it supports student caving clubs, who are often stressed and limited on time with only a small number of competent leaders in the club to herd freshers around. While a student trip leader could, of course, go to County the night before or the morning of (and make the freshers wait a bit longer for breakfast) to rig it, it would make their life a bit easier to have an in situ rope on County. County is also useful as a flood escape route.
Whilst I like the idea of a rope on County, I won't protest against its removal. The extra walk across the fell is slightly annoying for lazy people like me but the pitch is so close to the entrance it wouldn't take that long to rig at all. I feel the same about Valley Entrance - I like the rope being there, it is convenient for through trips, but my life would not be drastically worse for the rope being removed. However, having to rig something like the 88foot pitch or Lyle Cavern in advance would be a pain in the arse, so I am a stronger advocate for those being there.
The stemples are an interesting one, I can see a few arguments for them in certain cases but overall don't think they're necessary in the Dales. Lots of foreign caves do have stemples, however. The Gournier (Vercors, France) has tons of stemples in good condition for traverses around pools and climbs up waterfalls. Najdena Jama (Laze, Slovenia), along with many other Slovenian caves, has lots of stemples but most are in very poor condition.
However, I believe that whoever installs a rope has the right to remove it at any point. In this case, I believe it was the RRCPC who installed the rope & then removed it, so I fully support their decision to do so. I'm also very grateful that they installed one whilst WR was 'out of order' and also for the advance notice about the County rope removal (especially important during fresher season).
Having said that, I would also support an individual deciding to place a new in situ rope there, on the basis that they accepted responsibility for checking it & removing it once it became unsafe or unusable. I think in situ ropes should have a tag on them with the date they were placed in the cave and the date of the last 'check up', and people placing them there should check them so that they can be removed when necessary. I also think in situ ropes should be treated on a case-by-case basis, including ease for through trips as one of those factors.
The benefit of the County rope is that it supports student caving clubs, who are often stressed and limited on time with only a small number of competent leaders in the club to herd freshers around. While a student trip leader could, of course, go to County the night before or the morning of (and make the freshers wait a bit longer for breakfast) to rig it, it would make their life a bit easier to have an in situ rope on County. County is also useful as a flood escape route.
Whilst I like the idea of a rope on County, I won't protest against its removal. The extra walk across the fell is slightly annoying for lazy people like me but the pitch is so close to the entrance it wouldn't take that long to rig at all. I feel the same about Valley Entrance - I like the rope being there, it is convenient for through trips, but my life would not be drastically worse for the rope being removed. However, having to rig something like the 88foot pitch or Lyle Cavern in advance would be a pain in the arse, so I am a stronger advocate for those being there.
The stemples are an interesting one, I can see a few arguments for them in certain cases but overall don't think they're necessary in the Dales. Lots of foreign caves do have stemples, however. The Gournier (Vercors, France) has tons of stemples in good condition for traverses around pools and climbs up waterfalls. Najdena Jama (Laze, Slovenia), along with many other Slovenian caves, has lots of stemples but most are in very poor condition.
Isn't that what it says?
It's a separate point from (6). CNCC are not saying they support any such "well-meaning individuals" just warning people they may exist and that they have no control over them.
I'd be surprised if CNCC don't read this thread, though, so I'm sure they will see your comment and clarify if they think it necessary.
Stu
Active member
How are you going to confirm someone or some team aren't on the downward end of a rope? You can't. So leave well alone should be the advice.
For point (6) You might be able to confirm it if you've bottomed the cave. But if you can't confirm it, you shouldn't remove the rope, and CNCC wouldn't support you if you did.
Point (7) isn't advice about removing a rope, it's about being aware of the possibility that if you leave a rope, somebody might remove it, because it doesn't matter what advice is given, you can't stop them.
Stu
Active member
At the risk of going round in circles... You'd better be absolutely sure you can confirm it. And relative to the cave in question, good luck with that.
Fully comprehend point 7. It shouldn't be necessary. You leave the rope in place until due notice is given (as per the OP starting the thread) or consensus agreed.
Tim Pickering
Member
A good way to remove any ambiguity around points 6 and 7 is to get out of the habit of having in situ ropes. That way, if there's a rope, you know there's a very good chance that there are folk underground. If you rig ahead of a trip, pop a note on it. An in situ rope is a missed opportunity to practice/teach rigging skills.
I am really interested in some of the points in @thehungrytroglobite post that deserve extra attention. I waited overnight because I didn't want to seem antagonistic, but I feel its worth a considered response
And again - if removed when necessary other users cannot be sure it will be there and would have to still check.
In which case you can never be sure a fixed rope would still be there. You have to go and check.
Who chooses to accept this responsibility? And again - if removed once unsafe, other visitors could not be sure it was there and would need to check.
How often is often enough? Yearly, monthly? What about degradation and damage between checks. Good practice is to check the condition before every use, and that definitive check is by the user themselves. Relying totally on some other unknown person for your safety critical checks is not good.
And again - if removed when necessary other users cannot be sure it will be there and would have to still check.
It does not support any club if it encourages them to be lazy or ill prepared. If leaders are stressed they could allow more time, and use better leader:herd ratios. Checking they can get out might help reduce stress. Not checking the exit route is not a sign of competent leadership.
That sounds like good practice. If we want well-run clubs lets encourage good practice. And which beginner caver, after having the situation explained, would object to a short wait while their responsible leader makes simple preparations for a safe exit?
Exactly. Its so simple to avoid all the above issues by not relying on fixed gear at this location. And you cannot rely on the gear anyway for the reasons you gave above.
Totally agree. Fewer is generally better
Steve Clark
Well-known member
I do wonder if it would be possible to employ some kind of ‘trick’ to rig county from the bottom of the pitch should the need arise? Eg someone using the Manchester bypass rather than WR due to flooding.
At valley there’s always the option of chucking a rope over the bridge to safeguard the climb or even traverse in on the high level bolts if the in-situ rope was missing.
On the trident pitch left of white line chamber I imagine you can probably reach the bolts to rig something if needed.
Is there not something low-impact that could be employed to rig from below? I guess some folks can just free-climb it but I’m not that brave or skilled. I’ve got a clip stick that would reach, but I’m not carrying that from Lancaster.
A rising traverse of aid bolts?
At valley there’s always the option of chucking a rope over the bridge to safeguard the climb or even traverse in on the high level bolts if the in-situ rope was missing.
On the trident pitch left of white line chamber I imagine you can probably reach the bolts to rig something if needed.
Is there not something low-impact that could be employed to rig from below? I guess some folks can just free-climb it but I’m not that brave or skilled. I’ve got a clip stick that would reach, but I’m not carrying that from Lancaster.
A rising traverse of aid bolts?
CNCC
Well-known member
We are reading this with interest!
Nothing prompts such a mixed discussion like fixed aids! It is always interesting to see the diversity of opinions, from staunchly opposed, to strongly in favour, to varying degrees of ambivalence.
Firstly, regarding our guidance on leaving ropes in caves…
Point 6 is clear that we, as an organisation, would support and defend the right of any individual to remove a rope from a cave that is deemed dangerous (i.e., removal on safety grounds) or believed to be abandoned (i.e., removal on conservation grounds) provided they have ensured it is not in use by anyone presently underground. We are not sure what part of this is ambiguous, but we welcome feedback.
Point 7 is intended as a reminder to anyone leaving a rope in a cave that their rope may be used by others or removed in good faith (as per point 6). This is mainly to manage expectations.
There are many scenarios where long-term projects are benefitted by leaving caves rigged. In these situations, we believe that most cavers will be understanding, but unless they know that the rope is in active use, it could easily be mistaken as abandoned (particularly when it has been there some time and is starting to look tatty). This explains our recommendation in point 5 about labelling.
Our guidance does not aim to judge those leaving ropes. We simply wish to emphasise the importance of sharing our caves, and to provide thought-provoking considerations for anyone considering leaving ropes.
Regarding County Pot, we urge against any controversial unilateral action such as installing staples in response to the rope being removed. This was done on the Trident climb about 4 years ago by persons unknown, and within days of them being installed, someone (also unknown) had done a fairly bad job of cutting them off, meaning CNCC volunteers had to be sent out to tidy up the mess and remove the sharp metal spikes from the walls. Please, let’s not repeat this situation. We like to think that the two unknown parties in this situation were acting in their perceived best interests of cavers, however, there were no winners; only lessons to be learned for the future.
If you have strong feelings either way about this, why not come along to our meeting on 21st October and raise something for discussion?
cncc.org.uk
This is a good opportunity to voice ideas amongst a friendly group of northern cavers (in addition to UKCaving of course). Should CNCC be taking a different stance? Is there something we should be doing that we currently aren’t (either at County Pot or more broadly)? Would you want to see us serve as a democratic forum for discussing these things? Should our guidance on leaving ropes be changed or clarified? Or should we not get involved in these kinds of discussions and simply leave the matter alone?
We are always happy to hear input and ideas.
Nothing prompts such a mixed discussion like fixed aids! It is always interesting to see the diversity of opinions, from staunchly opposed, to strongly in favour, to varying degrees of ambivalence.
Firstly, regarding our guidance on leaving ropes in caves…
Point 6 is clear that we, as an organisation, would support and defend the right of any individual to remove a rope from a cave that is deemed dangerous (i.e., removal on safety grounds) or believed to be abandoned (i.e., removal on conservation grounds) provided they have ensured it is not in use by anyone presently underground. We are not sure what part of this is ambiguous, but we welcome feedback.
Point 7 is intended as a reminder to anyone leaving a rope in a cave that their rope may be used by others or removed in good faith (as per point 6). This is mainly to manage expectations.
There are many scenarios where long-term projects are benefitted by leaving caves rigged. In these situations, we believe that most cavers will be understanding, but unless they know that the rope is in active use, it could easily be mistaken as abandoned (particularly when it has been there some time and is starting to look tatty). This explains our recommendation in point 5 about labelling.
Our guidance does not aim to judge those leaving ropes. We simply wish to emphasise the importance of sharing our caves, and to provide thought-provoking considerations for anyone considering leaving ropes.
Regarding County Pot, we urge against any controversial unilateral action such as installing staples in response to the rope being removed. This was done on the Trident climb about 4 years ago by persons unknown, and within days of them being installed, someone (also unknown) had done a fairly bad job of cutting them off, meaning CNCC volunteers had to be sent out to tidy up the mess and remove the sharp metal spikes from the walls. Please, let’s not repeat this situation. We like to think that the two unknown parties in this situation were acting in their perceived best interests of cavers, however, there were no winners; only lessons to be learned for the future.
If you have strong feelings either way about this, why not come along to our meeting on 21st October and raise something for discussion?
CNCC Meetings and Minutes
Meetings are open to all and we encourage you to come and either just observe or take part.
cncc.org.uk
This is a good opportunity to voice ideas amongst a friendly group of northern cavers (in addition to UKCaving of course). Should CNCC be taking a different stance? Is there something we should be doing that we currently aren’t (either at County Pot or more broadly)? Would you want to see us serve as a democratic forum for discussing these things? Should our guidance on leaving ropes be changed or clarified? Or should we not get involved in these kinds of discussions and simply leave the matter alone?
We are always happy to hear input and ideas.
rm128
Active member
Seems a great way to look at it.
Jon
Member
I personally don't feel the need to practice my rigging all the time.
I'm beginning to change my mind on this particular location, I think I'd like it permanently rigged.
JAA
Active member
I think the real issue which is being missed is divers cluttering up underwater cave with miles of string, in Keld head alone there’s kilometres of the stuff! Something should be done about this persistent underwater littering, I mean imagine the micro plastics they could be releasing into the sump!