Croesor Warning

[KevinR]

Just did a through trip (1st Aug) and the Red rope on the first abseil has a damaged (severed) sheath about 12 metres down. A 10 person group in front of us reported it as the 7th person went down!
Therefore, we used our own rope for that pitch (as did the last two of the other group as they didn't have a rope long enough to double the pitch).

Second abseil rope looked good, pulley on zip wire was a little slow, bridges as scary as ever, but all intact and passable with due care.

Abseil rope into canoe was in good condition, except for a severed sheath just at water level, Canoe serviceable, and ascent  SRT rope is OK.

Kevin

 

[Alex]

I think the rope wears out in that place on a yearly or faster basis. Anyone fancy installing two 100ft ladders lol?

 

[cap n chris]

If a rope on a popular through trip is noticed as being knackered then isn't it morally incumbent to actually remove it completely so that no-one else falls foul while using it?

I only ask as I put a red 9mm rope there on my last trip to replace a knackered one which we took out, and left mine in situ. Perhaps it's the one you mention above which itself has now become knackered.

 

[ChrisJC]

Sadly that particular trip is a macho muppet magnet. People pass through entirely confident in the fixed aids, not even checking them, and most certainly not having any backup plan.

It is only a matter of time.....

Chris.

 

[underground]

I.e go in equipped to fully rig it and leave your gear behind if you can't retrieve it. I'm not saying re-rig the cables obviously but in the words of Baden-Powell, 'Be Prepared'

 

[RobinGriffiths]

IMHO. The ropes should be removed, and a sign(s) put in place saying fixed ropes should not be left in. Sure, it's a bit of a fag to walk over the hill to retrieve the ropes, but these are two 20m+ drops carrying a large footfall. With regard to the rest of the fixed aids, I've not been in since they were installed so can't comment.

 

[KevinR]

We would have left our rope, however not knowing the state of further pitches we decided not to (as we only had the one rope, plus paracord).
I made the decision (maybe wrongly) that if we had to retreat, then removing the red rope would have stranded both parties. I also considered tying a knot over the damage, but again could just see someone abseiling on to the knot without the gear to get around the knot.

 

[jaswa]

am going on saturday - will check it out as required.

 

[Olaf]

Just as an update, the first pitch has a reasonably good rope in place at the moment, but the second pitch does not, although it might still seem acceptable at the pitchhead. Also, there is a graveyard of old ropes at the top of the second pitch. We pulled our 60m rope through and unfortunately didn't have an empty extra tackle sack to take some of the rubbish out.

The last bridge is best done with either long cowstails or long legs, whatever you prefer. The canoe was still there and did a good job, but we found the sophisticated pulley mechanism broken and got some headaches when the boat was stuck half way across the lake. Overall still a good trip, but definitely bring your own rope!

 

[Speleotron]

I think the bolts on what used to be the death bridge need replacing, adn theres a couple of bad ones on the suspension bridge. We could move a lot of them by hand, we anticipated this so had spare rope to rig a bug equalised cluster and include better bolts further back (death bridge) but I think it needs a couple of P bolts rather than lots of exp[ansion bolts that only last a year or two in slate.

 

[georgenorth]

More info on why expansion bolts are a bad idea in slate (or other soft rock) is available here: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/warning-issued-over-slate-bolts
It also seems crazy to that ropes are left 'in-situ' on this trip. As said above, surely it's only a matter of time before one snaps on somebody.

George.

 

[GT]

It's worth noting the BMC report is about 10mm anchors, we've seen similar issues in other tests with 10mm expansion anchors however 12mm have performed significantly better.

Regardless resin anchors are probably better long term, however those anchors on the bridges and tyroleans are under significant loads given their holding up cables and big angles. They look like they've been competently placed but I do worry every time I've used them!

As for the pitches the anchors there appear to also have been competently placed, although I don't know be who. From recollection (and it's been a while since I last did the trip) the expantion anchors in there are all 12mm. Rub points are inevitable, I remeber looking at them once, but with quarried rock choice of anchor placements limited when trying to find good rock. Efforts have been made to protect the ropes but still ropes get trashed given the amount of use they get.

Personally I use my own rope and pull through, but certainly appreciate the get out of jail card of having a rope fixed if I found myself having to reverse the trip.

 

[georgenorth]

It's worth noting the BMC report is about 10mm anchors, we've seen similar issues in other tests with 10mm expansion anchors however 12mm have performed significantly better.

Regardless resin anchors are probably better long term, however those anchors on the bridges and tyroleans are under significant loads given their holding up cables and big angles. They look like they've been competently placed but I do worry every time I've used them!

As for the pitches the anchors there appear to also have been competently placed, although I don't know be who. From recollection (and it's been a while since I last did the trip) the expantion anchors in there are all 12mm.

I think the bolts on what used to be the death bridge need replacing, and theres a couple of bad ones on the suspension bridge. We could move a lot of them by hand...

The above would suggest that there's a problem! Presumably the failure mechanism is the same regardless of whether they're 10mm or 12mm.

 

[GT]

I wouldn't be using 10mm anchors in slate personally for anything much:

http://youtu.be/wtExgjpfvlE

Compared to:

http://youtu.be/7tmLWubnUmg

for example...

 

[cavemanmike]

any tests done with the hangers being stress loaded in the direction they were intended to be used. ie downwards

 

[Simon Wilson]

any tests done with the hangers being stress loaded in the direction they were intended to be used. ie downwards

A few people have said similar things about the direction of load.

There is no intended direction. Rock anchors are designed to be loaded in any direction. The most important test is in tension since that is expected to be the weakest. In practice they are loaded in tension very often, in caving when placed in a roof or in climbing when placed at the rear of a stance.

Testing anchors in shear is more difficult but it has to be done to comply with the standards and it is done.

http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/3.html      Scroll down to the last test.

 

[bograt]

But is anyone testing in Croesor?, it is mostly blasted rock 

 

[GT]

The first video was from a test bed in Cwmorthin which is at the bottom of the valley from Croesor, recently we had 2 test beds in Cwmorthin with a wider range and greater number of anchors tested (as well as another 2 test beds in different areas to try and represent the different quality of slate mines explored in North Wales).

All were tested as illustrated pulled in there weakest plane. Granted in normal use anchors (particularly expansion anchors) are not often pulled in this direction, it's pretty pertinent to the Croesor anchors as for example the first tyrolean is rigged with a cluster of expansion anchors many of which are being pulled in roughly the same orientation illustrated in the videos.

 

[Speleotron]

A lot of the tryolean anchors, especially on the suspension bridge,a re pulled directly outwards.  A lot of them are porly placed, eg bolts in each others force cones (force cones do bad things to slate anyway). It's probably because a few different groups here and there do the odd bit of bolting rather than anything planned and permenant.

 

[RichS]

Hi All,

Just wondered whether there are any more updates on the state of the rigging in Croesor?

Thanks