Kenilworth
New member
Taping speleothems is generally the opposite of conservation.
Crossing conservation tape (split from Update on Twll Du)
- Thread starter nickdegarepitt
- Start date
SamT
Moderator
I dont think tape has to have a notional 'vertical' barrier. It just depends on the nature of the passage and what its protecting. Sure, if the tape is protecting a load of speleotherms on a wall, then yes, its got a vertical barrier, but if its steering you away from some poached egg stal on the floor, then it wont.
90% of issues argued over on this forum just come down to common sense.
90% of issues argued over on this forum just come down to common sense.
ttxela2
Active member
SamT said:I dont think tape has to have a notional 'vertical' barrier. It just depends on the nature of the passage and what its protecting. Sure, if the tape is protecting a load of speleotherms on a wall, then yes, its got a vertical barrier, but if its steering you away from some poached egg stal on the floor, then it wont.
90% of issues argued over on this forum just come down to common sense.
I'd hoped that was the case, however OR's post seemed to indicate a fairly draconian punishment for a limb straying into the air above a tape without damaging anything - unless I did misunderstand........
aricooperdavis
Moderator
I see tape as a sign saying "watch out, there's fragile stuff here". So I won't step over it, because that fragile stuff could be the floor, but I also don't treat it as an invisible force-field. As SamT says, it's common sense I think.
If someone can think of an example where tape has been laid intending to create an invisible force-field to protect something above it that wouldn't be visible to the naked eye then I'll accept the error of my ways?
If someone can think of an example where tape has been laid intending to create an invisible force-field to protect something above it that wouldn't be visible to the naked eye then I'll accept the error of my ways?
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
but it is worth bearing in mind what happens if mud drops off you boiler suit.SamT said:I dont think tape has to have a notional 'vertical' barrier. It just depends on the nature of the passage and what its protecting. Sure, if the tape is protecting a load of speleotherms on a wall, then yes, its got a vertical barrier, but if its steering you away from some poached egg stal on the floor, then it wont.
90% of issues argued over on this forum just come down to common sense.
I am also afraid that common sense is not as common a commodity as many might think.
Cavebaby88
New member
Ars OP has already indicated- the images were taken in OCAF which is protected by SSSI. The tapes are there for a reason and not to be crossed! The image taken with someone clearly on the wrong side of the take is in straw chamber which is highly fragile and the other is taken on top of the central formation in Hall of the mountain king. It makes my blood boil to think that some "cavers" have zero disregard for rules and think they can do as they please. If your not willing to obide by the rules then don't go in there. Simple.
Cavebaby88
New member
Topimo said:
That would be different as it wasn't purposely damaged. Accident happen... standing or sitting on formations just so you can have a photo is not ok
Mattrees
Member
pwhole
Well-known member
Not quite as stern as that, as cleaning stations would have to be set up everywhere to scrub the brain matter from the formations. I was thinking more of a violet-blue electric plasma wall that makes a nice electric 'thrumming' noise when it's activated. You want to touch it, but you know you shouldn't
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
ttxela2 said:SamT said:I dont think tape has to have a notional 'vertical' barrier. It just depends on the nature of the passage and what its protecting. Sure, if the tape is protecting a load of speleotherms on a wall, then yes, its got a vertical barrier, but if its steering you away from some poached egg stal on the floor, then it wont.
90% of issues argued over on this forum just come down to common sense.
I'd hoped that was the case, however OR's post seemed to indicate a fairly draconian punishment for a limb straying into the air above a tape without damaging anything - unless I did misunderstand........
Firstly as a cave leader ( read "conservation warden" for that ) I must show complete respect to all forms of conservation in a cave. You cannot expect others to comply with things if you do not do it yourself. The real " crime " was to put the image up here on the forum. That denotes a rather blatant disregard of things which is totally wrong. The image was noted and I removed it. I would not see holding a camera above and within a tape as being wrong if its way above the floor deposit being protected. However some images look disproportionate when taken and can make the camera look nearer the subject than it really is specially if any sort of of telephoto is used. I often carry a " selfie stick " for views like this. As original explorers of certain finds we have taken images on a first trip in places like The Frozen Deep. Obviously before the process of adding tapes. Some of my original photos taken there can never be repeated. ( A large area of upper TFD is now taped off )
Incidentally the planning for the tapes in TFD took considerable thought. We wanted to take people safely as near to formations and points of interest as possible. We also wanted a circular route to make the trip more interesting. On the whole I think we made a good job of it. We used white farm electric tape ,maybe for the first time in a UK cave ,as it is strong , never rots and to my mind looks better than the orange tapes previously used. ( Pros and cons discussed here before ) .The bats seem to love it.
Naturally I would prefer to see no tape at all but we all know that would not do at all dont we ?
nickdegarepitt
New member
The Old Ruminator said:ttxela2 said:SamT said:I dont think tape has to have a notional 'vertical' barrier. It just depends on the nature of the passage and what its protecting. Sure, if the tape is protecting a load of speleotherms on a wall, then yes, its got a vertical barrier, but if its steering you away from some poached egg stal on the floor, then it wont.
90% of issues argued over on this forum just come down to common sense.
I'd hoped that was the case, however OR's post seemed to indicate a fairly draconian punishment for a limb straying into the air above a tape without damaging anything - unless I did misunderstand........
Firstly as a cave leader ( read "conservation warden" for that ) I must show complete respect to all forms of conservation in a cave. You cannot expect others to comply with things if you do not do it yourself. The real " crime " was to put the image up here on the forum. That denotes a rather blatant disregard of things which is totally wrong. The image was noted and I removed it. I would not see holding a camera above and within a tape as being wrong if its way above the floor deposit being protected. However some images look disproportionate when taken and can make the camera look nearer the subject than it really is specially if any sort of of telephoto is used. I often carry a " selfie stick " for views like this. As original explorers of certain finds we have taken images on a first trip in places like The Frozen Deep. Obviously before the process of adding tapes. Some of my original photos taken there can never be repeated. ( A large area of upper TFD is now taped off )
Incidentally the planning for the tapes in TFD took considerable thought. We wanted to take people safely as near to formations and points of interest as possible. We also wanted a circular route to make the trip more interesting. On the whole I think we made a good job of it. We used white farm electric tape ,maybe for the first time in a UK cave ,as it is strong , never rots and to my mind looks better than the orange tapes previously used. ( Pros and cons discussed here before ) .The bats seem to love it.
Naturally I would prefer to see no tape at all but we all know that would not do at all dont we ?
Please can you clarify what you mean when you stated ?The real " crime " was to put the image up here on the forum. That denotes a rather blatant disregard of things which is totally wrong?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Well for a fact nobody would have known about it and I would not have been in trouble. By posting the photo it makes it look that I condone the tape misdemeanor. Or maybe worse that I dont care about it and can do what I want. Thats's what I mean about " crime ". Posting it up when I should have known better. To be honest I just did not really notice. You cannot entirely blame the subject if a photographer places them somewhere they should not be. OK they should refuse to be photographed that way I suppose.
Cavebaby88
New member
"No one would have known about It
You do realise that these images weren't taken by the OP right? They were publically posted online by the people in the photos where they could be publically accessed by anyone. Freedom of information act states that anything you post publicly can be used against you. So if your stupid enough to post them then you should be able to take the backlash.
You do realise that these images weren't taken by the OP right? They were publically posted online by the people in the photos where they could be publically accessed by anyone. Freedom of information act states that anything you post publicly can be used against you. So if your stupid enough to post them then you should be able to take the backlash.
Cave_Troll
Active member
In an ideal world, leaning over the tape would not be acceptable.
Even if we assume that you can see all the features the tape is trying to protect (so you're not going to head but a straw) , there is no guarantee that nothing will fall off your helmet or selfie stick.
Yes probably it won't, but tell that to the BBC crew who nearly dropped a camera down Diccan Pot because they forgot to clamp it down properly on the trolley.
An "accidental" drop of a camera, or a lens cap, or a side light off a helmet etc still causes damage.
Even if we assume that you can see all the features the tape is trying to protect (so you're not going to head but a straw) , there is no guarantee that nothing will fall off your helmet or selfie stick.
Yes probably it won't, but tell that to the BBC crew who nearly dropped a camera down Diccan Pot because they forgot to clamp it down properly on the trolley.
An "accidental" drop of a camera, or a lens cap, or a side light off a helmet etc still causes damage.
Leclused
Active member
caving_fox said:
I do not think there is list of what to be taped and what not. It is always up to the explorers to decide what to be taped/protected.
In my club we always try to preserve the maximum we can.
Some information about conservation can be found on our club webiste : http://www.scavalon.be/avalonuk/av06.htm
